According to Advaita Vedanta, the Veda addresses itself to two kinds of audiences - the ordinary ones who desire the transitory heaven and other pleasures obtained as a result of ritual sacrifices, and the more advanced seeker who seeks to know Brahman.

There is nothing more rational, more intelligible and more un-dogmatic insights of Sri, Sankara, is to drop all the theistic non-duality or Advaita which is meant for those who are incapable and not receptive to realize the ultimate truth or Brahman.

Gaudapada says: - the merciful Veda teaches karma and upaasana to people of  lower and middling intellect, while jnana is taught to those of higher intellect.

According to Advaita Vedanta, the Veda addresses itself to two kinds of audiences - the ordinary ones who desire the transitory heaven and other pleasures obtained as a result of ritual sacrifices, and the more advanced seeker who seeks to know Brahman. Thus, the purva mimam.sa, with its emphasis on the karma kanda of the Vedas, is meant for the first audience, to help lead its followers along the way. However, the Vedanta, with its emphasis on the jnana kanda, is meant for those who wish to go beyond such transient pleasures.

Upanishad says:

  This Atman cannot be attained by the study of the Vedas, or by intelligence, or by much hearing of sacred books. It is attained by him alone whom It chooses. To such a one Atman reveals Its own form. [Katha Upanishad Ch-II -23-P-20]

Mundaka Upanishad  :-

This Atman cannot be attained through study of the Vedas, nor through intelligence, nor through much learning. He who chooses Atman—by him alone is Atman attained. It is Atman that reveals to the seeker Its true nature. [3 –page-70 Mundaka Upanishad  Upanishads by Nikilanada]

When the Upanishads say:-

It is attained by him alone whom It chooses. To such a one Ataman reveals its own form.  Then what is the use of indulging through our intelligence or our accumulated knowledge, when one is not chosen by the self, which is the soul, which is in the form of consciousness.

There is no need for any philosophy in pursuit of truth because they take the seeker nearer to truth but they create more doubts and confusions.

 

The scriptures and theories and teaching based on the ego are not the yardstick. Using them as yardstick to understand and assimilate the truth will lead one towards pursuit of arguments. Seeker of truth has to discover on his own, the truth of his true existence by inquiring “what is mind?” and “what is substance of the mind?” and move forward.  

The ultimate truth is one without the second, the one is not in the sense half or two, but the one that remain forever One, without the second.  The consciousness is all pervading. There is no place where consciousness is not.

Consciousness is in everyone, consciousness is in everything .consciousness is one behind many. Consciousness alone is. It means the universe and its contents are the visible form of consciousness. And consciousness in turn is invisible form of the universe, which appears as mind.  

That is why Sri, Sankara says in commentary in Vedanta sutra that what is accepted without proper enquiry will not lead a person to the final goal. On the contrary, such acceptance will result only in evil, in something which is detrimental to our spiritual progress.   Seeker of truth should not believe blindly in traditional orthodox non-duality without verifying all the facts from every angle. One has to reflect through reasoning over and over again without getting tired of the process.

Everything is made of the same substance, whether it be inside--as in dreams--or outside as in waking. Whatever is seen as object, heard as sound or name is of the same substance. Many have   begun to suspect this truth. This is the great lesson to be learnt. Consciousness is all this."

Reason should not be interpreted to mean intellect. Reason is that which finally distinguishes between real and unreal, false and true, and therefore it takes all the three states into account.

Those who assert the world is not illusion because they are unaware of the fact that, the world is reality within the illusion (waking)

Those who assert the world is not illusion because they are unaware of the fact that, the world is reality within the illusion (waking). And they are frightened to consider the world as illusion.  Without considering the world as illusion, it is impossible to acquire  Self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana.   

After verifying through deeper inquiry if one finds the world is reality within the illusion then he cannot again say the world is not illusion.

If one is frightened to accept the world is illusion (waking) than he is unfit to acquire Self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana.  Thus who stuck with the reality of the world, are stuck with reality of the individual experiences of birth, life and death, which takes place within the unreal world. Thus pursuit of truth is for those who have courage to accept the reality as it is, that is the reality without form, time and space.

According to Advaita Vedanta, the Veda addresses itself to two kinds of audiences - the ordinary ones who desire the transitory heaven and other pleasures obtained as a result of ritual sacrifices, and the more advanced seeker who seeks to know Brahman. Thus, the purva mimam.sa, with its emphasis on the karma kanda of the Vedas, is meant for the first audience, to help lead its followers along the way. However, the Vedanta, with its emphasis on the jnana kanda, is meant for those who wish to go beyond such transient pleasures.

Sri, Sankara says in Brahma Sutras: that Brahman is the cause of the world, whereas in Mandukya he denies it. This is because he says that at the lower stage of understanding, the former teaching must be given, for people will get frightened as they cannot understand how the world can be without a cause, but to those in a higher stage, the truth 

of non-causality can be revealed.

Those who are frightened to accept the world is mere illusion should never indulge path of wisdom.

 Modern Ramanuja- J.Krishnamurti describes to perfection is the awakening to Reality—the realization that pure Consciousness alone is, that the perpetually fluctuating and evanescent contents of the mind derive from it. This awakening effectively happens in an instant. But in order for the lightning flash to take place, resulting in a firm and unshakable certitude, a long labour is necessary, which he seems to underestimate. “Truth is a pathless land” is his answer.

Many thinkers feel J.K’s teaching seems essentially negative, a potent but bitter medicine for those imprisoned by institutional cults. He breaks the student’s bonds, but then leads him to a vast desert where he abandons him. The ultimate state of consciousness he describes is that of the traditional sage or fully enlightened being, but he does not show us the process leading to the realization of this state. He describes marvelously the goal, but does not indicate the steps to be taken: his recurring phrases "unified consciousness" and "let go" are not a road-map.

J.Krishnamurti‘s approach was more practical, and he stuck with the reality of the world, he took it as real.

Sri, Sankara himself has warned us not to use ambiguous words, and to practice semantic analysis in his book "Definition of one's own Self. (Page 199, v.24 of "Sankara's Selected Works)

Sri, Sankara founded his Advaita Vedanta either on reason independent of sruti or on sruti confirmed by reason."   Sri, Sankara's commentary on the Mandukya Upanishad, II, 1:  This [the unreality of duality] is borne out by the Srutis ... But it is possible also to show the unreality of the object world even from pure reasoning, and this second chapter is undertaken for that purpose.

 Sri, Sankara himself had often said that his philosophy was based on Sruti, or revealed scripture.  This may be because Sri, Sankara addressed the ordinary man, who finds security in the idea of causality and thus in the idea of God—and Revelation is indispensable to prove the latter.  He believed that those of superior intelligence, have no need of this idea of divine causality, and can therefore dispense with Sruti and arrive at the truth of Non-Dualism by pure reason. 

Sri, Sankara, in debates with Buddhists and others who did not recognize the authority of the Vedas, had been obliged to prove the truth of Advaita by means of reason alone.  Mandukya Upanishad, a scripture which appealed to reason to the exclusion of Revelation. 

Non-duality does not need the support of any Scripture or Revelation like the Veda. For it is based, not upon the varying theological fancies, which are as numerous as the sands of the sea, but upon reason, the common heritage of all mankind, irrespective of colour or creed or clime.

Upanishad says:-

  This Atman cannot be attained by the study of the Vedas, or by intelligence, or by much hearing of sacred books. It is attained by him alone whom It chooses. To such a one Atman reveals Its own form. [Katha Upanishad Ch-II -23-P-20]

Mundaka Upanishad  :-

This Atman cannot be attained through study of the Vedas, nor through intelligence, nor through much learning. He who chooses Atman—by him alone is Atman attained. It is Atman that reveals to the seeker Its true nature. (3 –page-70 Mundaka Upanishad  Upanishads by Nikilanada]

When the Upanishads say:-

It is attained by him alone whom It chooses. To such a one Atman reveals its own form.  Then what is the use of indulging through our intelligence or our accumulated knowledge, when one is not chosen by the self, which is the soul, which is in the form of consciousness.

There is no need for any philosophy in pursuit of truth because they take the seeker nearer to truth but they create more doubts and confusions.

 

The scriptures and theories and teaching based on the ego are not the yardstick. Using them as yardstick to understand and assimilate the truth will lead one towards pursuit of arguments. Seeker of truth has to discover on his own, the truth of his true existence by inquiring “what is mind?” and “what is substance of the mind?” and move forward.  

The ultimate truth is one without the second, the one is not in the sense half or two, but the one that remain forever One, without the second.  The consciousness is all pervading. There is no place where consciousness is not.

Consciousness is in everyone, consciousness is in everything,  consciousness is one behind many. Consciousness alone is. It means the universe and its contents are the visible form of consciousness. And consciousness in turn is invisible form of the universe, which appears as mind.  

Adyathmic Discussion--313 (real and unreal)

Gaudapada’s rational exposition of Advaita: - that whatever is seen, whether external or internal, whether by the ordinary persons or yogis, is unreal.

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  Hamish McLean, Bini P Varikattumalil and 2 others like this.
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    Rs Mani ‎"Yad drushyam tad nashyam"
    

    Saturday at 5:20pm ·
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    Kuntimaddi Sadananda · 5 mutual friends

    And every so called apparently real has real as it substantive. What ever is seen is neither real nor unreal - Goudapaada calls that as vaitatyam - as the very title of his 2nd chapter indicates. Unreal cannot be seen or experienced. same applies to real too - it cannot be seen or experienced. The only reality is the seer - the conscious entity. Hari Om!
    

    Saturday at 9:19pm · · 1
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    Santthosh Kumaar
    

    Pranamas dear Sri Sadanandaji.
    I respect your scriptural mastery and also your views and wisdom.
    Sage Sri, Sankara says in VivekaChudamani :-
    58. Loud speech consisting of a shower of words, the skill in expounding the Scriptures, and likewise erudition - these merely bring on a little personal enjoyment to the scholar, but are no good for Liberation.
    59. The study of the Scriptures is useless so long as the highest Truth is unknown, and it is equally useless when the highest Truth has already been known.
    60. The Scriptures consisting of many words are a dense forest which merely causes the mind to ramble. Hence men of wisdom should earnestly set about knowing the true nature of the Self.
    Without the scriptures one has to move ahead in his pursuit of truth.
    Sri, Sankara says in Viveka Chudamani:-
    65. As a treasure hidden underground requires (for its extraction) competent instruction, excavation, the removal of stones and other such things lying above it and (finally) grasping, but never comes out by being (merely) called out by name, so the transparent Truth of the self, which is hidden by Maya and its effects, is to be attained through the instructions of a knower of Brahman, followed by reflection, meditation and so forth, but not through perverted arguments.
    66. Therefore the wise should, as in the case of disease and the like, personally strive by all the means in their power to be free from the bondage of repeated births and deaths.
    The world is both real and unreal. It is real because it is a manifestation of consciousness, but is unreal, in the sense, that it is not absolute and eternal like consciousness itself.
    Peoples approach is more practical, and they stuck with the reality of the world, they take it as real. That is why all the confusion.
    In self-awareness-- the witness and witnessed are one in essence. That essence is consciousness. There is no second thing exists other than consciousness.
    Thus whatever seen, known, believed and experienced as a person is reality within the waking experience but waking experience itself is mere illusion.
    Soul, which is present in the form of consciousness, is the innermost self. Consciousness is the witness that experiences the action, the actor, and the world of separate things. It is like a light that illuminates everything in a theatre, revealing the master of ceremonies, the guests, and the dancers with complete impartiality. Even when they all depart, the light shines to reveal their absence.
    
    What is not consciousness (formless) in the experience of diversity [waking or universe]? The waking and the dream cease to exist without consciousness. The seeker, seeking and his destination all are one in essence.
    
    There is only need to realize the whole universe in which we exist is created out of consciousness (soul or Atman), the innermost self. On the standpoint innermost self, the universe is mere illusion created out of consciousness. Thus on the ultimate standpoint no second thing exists other than consciousness. Thus consciousness is ultimate truth or Brahman.
    With love, respect and regards
    Pranamas

    
    

    Saturday at 10:11pm · · 1
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    Kuntimaddi Sadananda · 5 mutual friends

    
    

    Santthoseji – PraNAms. Everything you said is absolutely correct. mithyaa actually defined as sat asat vilakshaNam - it is neither sat nor asat -(it is not both real and unreal) - as you are quoting Vivekachudamani - look at the sloka where maaya is defined - sannapyaasannou ubhayaatmikaano - it is not sat, it is not asat, it not is both. .. mahat bhuuta anirvacaniiya ruupa. Hence illusion is somewhat incorrect translation for maayaa. Goudapaada negates only the reality assigned to the world by taking dream example. In the forth ch. he dismisses the creation as real since infinite Brahman cannot create since any creation involves a modification or vikaara. however the very fact that Goudapaada, who is part of creation is creating the kaarika for others to study, the so-called mayaa and ajaati vada has to be understood Icorrectly. It is real for those who have not yet realized, like the dream world - sakaale satyavat bhaati prabhode satyasaHt bhavet - says Shankara in Atma bodha. A dreamer does not think the dream is unreal – only a waker says it was unreal. Even the sloka from VivekaChudamani that you quoted – avijnaate pare tatve shaastraadhiistu nishphalaa| vijnaatepi pare tatve shaastraadhiistu nishphalaa| The study of scriptures is useless for those who have not realized and the study of scriptures is useless for those who have realized – if it is useless for both they what good are the shaatras? Hence the sloka has to be understood properly. The mere study of scriptures is useless unless one strives to understand the import of the scriptures – it is not mere understanding as a thought but understanding as a fact. It has been said that shaastraas support a seeker until he realizes and the realized one will support the shaastras after realization that they are indeed true and by importing the teaching to others who are in need of the teaching. Anyway I know you know that – just pointing out so that others do not misunderstand that world is illusion – it is recognized as maayaa only with realization of the truth behind it. In the tat tvam asi – the tat part that includes the whole world is not dismissed completely- The student is asked to look at the underlying substantive truth – aitadaatmya idagam sarvam tat satyam – sa aatmaa – tat tvam asi swetaketo. The essence of all that is seen is the absolute truth – sat – and that is the self that you are. My praNAms for the sat sangh. Hari Om!

    
    

    Saturday at 11:20pm · · 2
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    Rs Mani ‎"Swakale astivat bhati, yad, tad, mithya" It, mithya has temporary appearance, and it is also useful temporarily, for a temporary entity. Haari Om Sri Sadanandaji.
    

    Sunday at 11:10am ·
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    Kuntimaddi Sadananda · 5 mutual friends

    Maniji - Yes if one uses the word asat in the meaning of mithyaa. Temporary is a concept of time but time itself is mithyaa. As long as one understands these correctly then there is no problme. Hari Om!
    

    Yesterday at 7:13am · · 2
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    Santthosh Kumaar
    

    Thank you Dear Sri Sadanandaji,
    I respect your valuable views and wisdom.
    As per my conviction derived from deeper self-search:-
    Those who assert the world is not illusion because they are unaware of the fact that, the world is reality within the illusion (waking). And they are frightened to consider the world as illusion. Without considering the world as illusion, it is impossible to acquire Self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana.
    After verifying through deeper inquiry if one finds the world is reality within the illusion then he cannot again say the world is not illusion.
    If one is frightened to accept the world is illusion (waking) than he is unfit to acquire Self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana. Thus who stuck with the reality of the world, are stuck with reality of the individual experiences of birth, life and death, which takes place within the unreal world. Thus pursuit of truth is for those who have courage to accept the reality as it is, that is the reality without form, time and space.
    According to Adavaita Vedanta, the Veda addresses itself to two kinds of audiences - the ordinary ones who desire the transitory heaven and other pleasures obtained as a result of ritual sacrifices, and the more advanced seeker who seeks to know Brahman. Thus, the purva mimam.sa, with its emphasis on the karma kanda of the Vedas, is meant for the first audience, to help lead its followers along the way. However, the Vedanta, with its emphasis on the jnana kanda, is meant for those who wish to go beyond such transient pleasures.
    Sri, Sankara says in Brahma Sutras: that Brahman is the cause of the world, whereas in Mandukya he denies it. This is because he says that at the lower stage of understanding, the former teaching must be given, for people will get frightened as they cannot understand how the world can be without a cause, but to those in a higher stage, the truth of non-causality can be revealed.
    Thus those who are frightened to accept the world is mere illusion should never indulge path of wisdom.
    
    Modern Ramanuja- J.Krishnamurti describes to perfection is the awakening to Reality—the realization that pure Consciousness alone is, that the perpetually fluctuating and evanescent contents of the mind derive from it. This awakening effectively happens in an instant. But in order for the lightning flash to take place, resulting in a firm and unshakable certitude, a long labour is necessary, which he seems to underestimate. “Truth is a pathless land” is his answer.
    
    Many thinkers feel J.K’s teaching seems essentially negative, a potent but bitter medicine for those imprisoned by institutional cults. He breaks the student’s bonds, but then leads him to a vast desert where he abandons him. The ultimate state of consciousness he describes is that of the traditional sage or fully enlightened being, but he does not show us the process leading to the realization of this state. He describes marvelously the goal, but does not indicate the steps to be taken: his recurring phrases "unified consciousness" and "let go" are not a road-map.
    
    J.Krishnamurti‘s approach was more practical, and he stuck with the reality of the world, he took it as real.
    
    Sri, Sankara himself has warned us not to use ambiguous words, and to practice semantic analysis in his book "Definition of one's own Self. (Page 199, v.24 of "Sankara's Selected Works)
    Sri, Sankara founded his Advaita Vedanta either on reason independent of sruti or on sruti confirmed by reason." Sri, Sankara's commentary on the Mandukya Upanishad, II, 1: This [the unreality of duality] is borne out by the Srutis ... But it is possible also to show the unreality of the object world even from pure reasoning, and this second chapter is undertaken for that purpose.
    
    Sri, Sankara himself had often said that his philosophy was based on Sruti, or revealed scripture. This may be because Sri, Sankara addressed the ordinary man, who finds security in the idea of causality and thus in the idea of God—and Revelation is indispensable to prove the latter. He believed that those of superior intelligence, have no need of this idea of divine causality, and can therefore dispense with Sruti and arrive at the truth of Non-Dualism by pure reason.
    
    Sri, Sankara, in debates with Buddhists and others who did not recognize the authority of the Vedas, had been obliged to prove the truth of Advaita by means of reason alone. Mandukya Upanishad, a scripture which appealed to reason to the exclusion of Revelation.
    
    Nonduality does not need the support of any Scripture or Revelation like the Veda. For it is based, not upon the varying theological fancies, which are as numerous as the sands of the sea, but upon reason, the common heritage of all mankind, irrespective of colour or creed or clime.
    
    Upanishad says:-
    This Ataman cannot be attained by the study of the Vedas, or by intelligence, or by much hearing of sacred books. It is attained by him alone whom It chooses. To such a one Ataman reveals Its own form. [Katha Upanishad Ch-II -23-P-20]
    Mundaka Upanishad :-
    This Ataman cannot be attained through study of the Vedas, nor through intelligence, nor through much learning. He who chooses Ataman—by him alone is Ataman attained. It is Ataman that reveals to the seeker Its true nature. [ 3 –page-70 Mundaka Upanishad Upanishads by Nikilanada]
    
    When the Upanishads say:-
    
    It is attained by him alone whom It chooses. To such a one Ataman reveals its own form. Then what is the use of indulging through our intelligence or our accumulated knowledge, when one is not chosen by the self, which is the soul, which is in the form of consciousness.
    
    There is no need for any philosophy in pursuit of truth because they take the seeker nearer to truth but they create more doubts and confusions.
    
    The scriptures and theories and teaching based on the ego are not the yardstick. Using them as yardstick to understand and assimilate the truth will lead one towards pursuit of arguments. Seeker of truth has to discover on his own, the truth of his true existence by inquiring “what is mind?” and “what is substance of the mind?” and move forward.
    
    The ultimate truth is one without the second, the one is not in the sense half or two, but the one that remain forever One, without the second. The consciousness is all pervading. There is no place where consciousness is not.
    Consciousness is in everyone, consciousness is in everything, consciousness is one behind many. Consciousness alone is. It means the universe and its contents are the visible form of consciousness. And consciousness in turn is invisible form of the universe, which appears as mind.
    With love, respect and regards
    Santthosh

    
    

    21 hours ago · · 1
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    Rs Mani Ego gets educated of its own swaroopa through exposure to teaching. Ego has to be there and after swaroopa is unfolded, ego continues to be there as enlightened ego. It is like using a thorn to remove a thorn embedded under the foot, and throwing both the thorns away, and feeling comfort only from the discomfort caused by the embedded thorn. This is how I appreciate the subject. Hari om.
    

    21 hours ago · · 1
  • 
    

    Merry Hempster thank you all for sharing your understandings, i very much enjoyed reading them. namaste.
    

    21 hours ago · · 1
  • 
    

    Rs Mani Till one is not knowledgeable for him 2+2 can be three etc. but not four, but once he is "enlightened" 2+2 is always four and he never makes the same mistake again.
    

    21 hours ago · · 1
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    Santthosh Kumaar
    

    For a Gnani:- his body is not body, even though he has the body , his ego is not ego, even though he has the ego and his experience of the world is not the world, even though he is in the midst of the world, because he is fully aware of the fact that his body ,his ego and his experience of the world are mere mirage created out of consciousness. Thus his body ,his ego and his experience of the world are reality within the waking experience, but waking experience itself is mere illusion. the dream becomes unreal when waking takes place. Similarly the waking becomes unreal when wisdom dawns. The wisdom Dawns when waking entity becomes aware of the fact that it itself is not the self, but the self is that,which witnesses the coming and going of the three states without the physical apparatus. The formless soul,which is present in the form of consciousness is the innermost self. the innermost self is the formless substance and witness of the three states. The formless substance and witness of the three states are one in essence. That essence is formless consciousness. Thus there is no second thing exists other than consciousness.

    
    

    20 hours ago ·
  • 
    

    Rs Mani
    

    Just like one is not fooled by the appearance of sun rising in the east and setting in the west, gnaani is not fooled by what is happening in body, mind and intellect. He does make use of them for maintenance of the body. In every respect a gnaani is like an agnaani with only difference that gnaani knows what is reality about the body,mind, and intellect and the world confronts him and remains not disturbed or agitated over what is happening in these, and in short he is an emotionally mature person!

    
    

    20 hours ago · · 1
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    Richard Clarke There is only the Self, and you are that, and only that, one without a second.
    

    20 hours ago · · 1
  • 
    

    Santthosh Kumaar
    

    I respect your views and wisdom dear Richard
    As per my conviction derived from deeper self :-
    Self is not ‘you’ but the self is that witnesses ‘you and the world’ together without the physical apparatus. You are the false self(ego or waking entity) within the false experience(waking) bound by birth, life and death and form, time and space whereas the ‘Self ‘ is birthless and deathless because it is formless. Thus self is not limited to waking state alone because it pervades in everything and everywhere in all the three states. Thus limiting the ‘self’ to waking entity alone is cause of the ignorance.
    
    The dream entity (you) and the dream world becomes falsehood when waking takes place. Similarly the waking entity (you) and the waking world become falsehood when wisdom dawns. Wisdom dawns when waking entity (you) realizes it itself is not the self but the self is that which witnesses the coming and going of the three states. The witness and the three states are one in essence. That essence is consciousness (Atman).
    Thus consciousness is ultimate truth or Brahman. Atman is second to none.
    
    Thus one has to know ‘What is mind? ‘What is the substance of the mind?’ and ‘What is the source of the mind?’ in order to realize the non-dualistic or Advaitic truth.

    
    

    18 hours ago ·
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    Santthosh Kumaar correction to the above-deeper self-search:-
    

    18 hours ago ·