When the self is formless, then there is no scope for all the thoughts, emotions, feeling perception greed, jealousy pain and pleasure which exist only when form is considered as self. In formless [true] existence there is no scope for human attributes because the self is attribute-less.
The self is beyond thoughts because the physical existence is created out of the single stuff. Therefore the diversity has no place in reality.
One becomes limited to the
concepts, names and forms within the waking or dream (mind or universe) .
Waking or dream (mind or universe) originates from the soul. The soul is in the
form of consciousness is the innermost self.Realizing the soul as the true self is truth realization. Soul is
limitless, permanent and unchanging, and by its nature is formless, non-dual and
universal. The soul witnesses the coming and going of the three states.On the standpoint of soul of self (formless
witness) the three states are mere illusion because the
witness [formless soul) and witnessed (three states) are one in essence. The
essence is soul or consciousness.Thus,
there is no second thing exists other than consciousness.Hence it is nondual. Thus consciousness is
the ultimate truth or Brahman
P: Because people think the body is born, lives and dies they feel the pleasure and pain as reality. But it is not body alone that dies, the world also dies together, because they appeared together and they disappear together as deep sleep or death. So, as long as one is in the body one is bound by pleasure and pain. Is there anyone who lives otherwise ? Santtosh, you did not answer my question Are you not effected by the pleasure / pain principle ? warm regards..
A: The body is within the world, the world is within the mind. The body and the world are reality within the waking experience. The waking experience is unreal, and our individual experiences of birth, life and death are happening within waking or dream. When the mind is present then only the waking or dream is present. If mind is absent the waking or dream is absent. When the mind is absent it is deep sleep. The witness of the three states is formless and real.
The truth is hidden within the mind, and no mind experiences. Deeper investigation reveals the truth.
I as Santthosh, is not author of the waking experience, because I as Santthosh exists within the waking experience. The waking experience is parallel dream and dream is parallel waking experience. If I was Alexander the great in the dream and suffered pain in the dream, the pain of the dream becomes unreal when waking takes place. Similarly, my experience of pain and pleasure becomes unreal when wisdom dawns. Within the illusion everyone is effected by pain and pleasure. Therefore, it is necessary for everyone to become consciously aware of the soul /consciousness themselves, and realize its effect themselves. Since when one becomes soul centric any claim of authorship of any experience makes him egocentric. Whatever is based on Egocentricity is falsehood. For a Gnani, nothing exits, nothing is ever exited, and nothing is going to exit, other than nothing, which is the soul /consciousness, which is second to none.
Is there not a danger in saying that the real is unreal? An automobile coming at you is real but if you call it an illusion what happens?
If an automobile coming at you in the dream, it remained reality until the waking took place. Similarly, if an automobile coming at you in waking experience will prevail as reality until wisdom dawns. The wisdom dawns when one becomes fully aware of the fact that the self no physical but self is the formless spirit.
The individual experiences happening within the waking or dream are reality within the waking or dream, but all the three states are mere illusion on the standpoint of the substance from which they have been created. The truth is the substance not the product, which has been created out of the substance. The product is mere illusion. Only when one becomes aware of the unreal nature of the mind, which appears as waking or dream [duality] disappears as deep sleep [non-duality].
If one knows the truth, then only he becomes aware of what is real and what is unreal. Without knowing what is truth, how can anyone know what is untruth.
Without being aware of the fact that, the self is not physical but it is formless spirit, how can anyone know the birth, life, death and world are mere illusion. Only after deeper verification through inquiry, analysis and reasoning one becomes aware of the fact that, the self is not physical but it is formless spirit. Therefore, whatever, seen, known, believed and experienced as a person of the world becomes mere illusion, on the standpoint of the formless self [soul]. Therefore, one has to makes sure of the fact that, the self is not the waking entity [physical entity], which is limited the waking experience alone but the self is formless. Only after realizing the self is formless, and then only one will know all the three states, which appear and disappear in succession, are mere illusion and the formless substance and witness of three states, is the formless soul. On the standpoint of the formless soul, there is nothing exits other then itself.
Once again you dazzle me with your intellect. What you wrote to me was brilliant, and to which I can only add...
Who understands? No one, because there is no such thing as a "who."
No one understands because all of "I" and "who" is illusory.
The "one who understands" finally, does not exist.
Soul is not an object, yet conditioned mind objectifies soul, and thus destroys it, and the opportunity to observe the natural state AS the natural state.
If I understand the last part...
All that is known within the waking or dream is fallacy because the three states are an object to the soul [no one], which is the subject. The subject [soul] is within the object but it is without the object. It [soul] is always no one [formless] because it is not an entity or identity within the waking or dream but consciousness /soul [no one] pervades in everything and everywhere in all the three states.
... "soul" is another word for the natural state, yes? Soul thus becomes through the word, an identified object, AND (through meditative awareness), an unconditioned subjective experience of "I," which, though formless, can still objectively recognize the difference between "the dream/illusion of ego/conditioned mind," and the formless, temporal nature of all phenomena.
Such fun!
Many Blessings
Dear J& r,
If one inquires “who am I?” or “what am I ?” he will never be able to reach the ultimate end. Who or Am represents physicality. To understand ‘I’ in a broader prospect, we have to verify the very existence of the ‘I’. Since people think ‘I’ as self, they will never be able to go deeper in inquiry. The “Who am ‘I’? or “What am ‘I’? Inquiry is helpful for the beginners, but they are inadequate penetrate to Ultimate end. Therefore, instead of who, or am, we have to investigate the very existence of the ‘I’ which appears and disappears. When ‘I’ appears the ego, body and the world appears together, and when ‘I’, disappears then the ego, body and world disappears together. So the ‘I’ is not limited to the physical entity alone, but ‘I’ is the mind, which contains the whole universe in you and me and other exists. So we all appear together and we disappear together. Thus we all exists within the ‘I’/mind. The mind appears as waking or dream. But the witness of the mind is within the three states but it is formless and apart from the three states. It is nothing to do with the individual experiences within the waking or dream. It remains with or without the waking or dream. If it remains consciously without the waking or dream then is true nature of the soul/self. If it is unconsciously remains without the waking or dream it is deep sleep or yogic Samadhi.
The states are identified due to ignorance cause by considering the ‘I’ as self. When one becomes aware of the fact that the ‘I’ is not the self, then one realize all the states are illusory.
The one which understands does not exist as person perceiving the world, but it exists as the soul eternally, which is called Brahman, Buddha’s nature, Christ in the past.
We are unconscious of the consciousness, which is aware of both conscious and unconscious experiences. The Unconsciousness can only be a consciousness without objects; otherwise it has no meaning. Therefore it is really and somehow consciousness. Through study of the mind one gradually becomes aware that it is what intellectuals’ calls "The Unconscious" which is at the back of it all, and what is called the soul/self, which is in the form of consciousness.
We all agree on the temporary world. One is conscious of that. The absolute may be an invention. A reaction to the temporal.
The whole beauty of life is in the fact that it is temporary and never happens again. the self always seeks permanency and security in repetition.
SK:-We exist in the world, which exit within the waking or dream. We are conscious of its reality because of the consciousness. We are unconscious about its unreal nature of our physical existence [man+world] because we are unaware of the consciousness, since we consider the birth, life, death and world as reality. We judge birth entity which is limited to the waking experience alone. If waking experience is absent man and his world cease to exist. Therefore, there is need to study the mind to unfold the mystery.
How anything can exist without the consciousness. Becoming aware of the consciousness is becoming aware of the unreal nature of the physical existence [man+world]. The permanent is consciousness, and impermanent is the physical existence [waking or dream], which is created, sustained by consciousness and finally dissolves back as consciousness.
People think the ego is the self . When one considers the mind to the physical entity then it becomes ego. The self means in spiritual sense the source of the whole existence. By limiting the self to the physical entity is cause of all sorts of doubts and confusion.
Science and modern thinkers limit the self to the ego. The ego, body world, intellect are division created out of consciousness. They all appear together and disappear together. All the energy, thought, world, ego body whatever accumulated dross and conditioning can be summed up and called with single word as mind, because they all exist when the mind exist, without the mind all these cesses to exist. Therefore, there is only a need to discriminate between mind and no mind experiences. All the intellectual analysis is not required because it is beyond intellectuality.
We have to use less word to get the truth.
That which one knows best in the waking, that which is nearest to him, that of which he can never be free, whose existence is supremely certain, is his consciousness which is the self. One may doubt anything else but he directly perceives his-self, which is consciousness.
Hence one has to begin the pursuit of truth with the study of consciousness, not, as is mistakenly done by theologians, metaphysicians, with the supposed Absolute.
All gold ornaments with different shapes are made of this same single material, so to explain the nature of the unknown self, one has start with something known and familiar, viz. consciousness, which one has in the three states, and proceed step by step from that onwards. One knows his -self as physical but it is mistake. If one considers the self is physical then it becomes ego. The self is not the ego but the knower of the ego. This soul/self is not physical but it is consciousness, which holds the whole physical existence. After knowing the fact that this consciousness is the self, one becomes aware the consciousness is ultimate truth.
All the three states product of the consciousness which should enable anyone to understand everything [all the three states] is consciousness. Moreover everyone has and knows this consciousness; therefore it is a universal datum. It is something which everybody can grasp, not merely some occultist or mystic; therefore there is no mystery-mongering in the study of truth.
N: "How anything can exist without the consciousness" Our consciousness is limited to our past experiences . With this limited consciousness we are trying to understand the unlimited. That is logically impossible. The limited must be dissolved for the unlimited to be . Right?
A: Our past, present and future experiences are limited to physicality. Where, there is experience [duality] there is always limitation. We have to understand the limited is created out of unlimited. To understand the unlimited, we have to know the self is not physical but it is the formless spirit [soul], and then only, it is possible for the limited to dissolve in unlimited, and then only there is oneness. That is the unity in diversity.
Whatever exists with object is consciousness; whatever exists without the objects also is consciousness. Therefore, consciousness alone exits, and whatever exits as objects also is consciousness. Therefore consciousness is second to none. Therefore, the consciousness[soul] is the ultimate truth.
P: Santtosh, the only issue I see in your approach is that you are rejecting life totally and reiterating that the soul is the only reality.
Nothing wrong with that.
But I feel more comfortable living in this world intensely, as it demands that of us every day
and at the same time learning about Truth.
A: It is not rejecting the life in total, but realizing the fact that, the burden and bondage of the duality is not on the physical self, which is the cause of anxiety in day today life but it is on the soul which is the true self. Know the truth, and that truth sets you free from experiencing the duality [pain and pleasure] as reality.
Until we are unaware of the fact that the self is not physical we simply take the authorship of the experience o duality and experience the illusory pain and pleasure as reality. When we become aware of the fact that, we are not the author of our own experience then only the burden is shifted to the true author which is the soul. The biblical insight says:- Cast the burden on Christ[truth] within and you go free.
It is the same way rejecting the burden of bondage of the dream after waking, consciously reject the reality of the waking in the midst of waking and live life in celebration of peace and tranquillity of the non-duality in the midst of duality. Only when you are soul oriented then only the witnessing happens and life [pain and pleasure] becomes a passing show.
It is necessary to know the subject in length, and then only it is possible to know what I am saying.
Self [soul] is spotless, tranquil, pure consciousness and beyond physicality. Thinking the ego is the self, body is the self mind is the self, but the self is only that which is conscious of all these.
Thinking the ego is the self, the soul the true self was deluded by illusion. The self [soul] is beyond the objective world. Thinking on the base of ego one is in the clutches of illusion and thinks on the base birth entity, which makes his more deluded.
As soul alone reveal this body, even so do the soul reveals this universe. Therefore the soul is the whole universe, and also it is without the universe.
T: Realize that real Self stands above all anxiety, above all fear, stands above all tribulation and trouble. Nobody can harm you, no one can injure you. - Santthosh -
my name is Therese and i am in harms way, freedom might just be the power to say no and very few of us have that luxury, as far as im concerned the real self does not stand alone, we are all in this together, such as it is, all of the foregoing conceptualizing of self as illusion does not seem to me to fit into my understanding of JK, can you draw me some parallels?
A: What is it that makes the body and the world exists for you? It is awareness. Mind is this whole universe in which you, me and others and everything that you, me and others know exists. The whole universe which contains you, me and others is mental; therefore it is mind.
The universe [mind] is mere mirage or illusion created out of the self, which is the soul. One has to analyze the mind through deeper thinking. Then only he becomes aware of the fact that, the mind is not confined to the body; because the mind is the whole universe. The universe appears as mind and the mind appears as waking or dream. And waking or dream disappears as deep sleep. This fact has to be investigated and assimilated first.
If the mind is whole universe and the universe is in the soul, which is the true self; what is there to claim as mine when there is nothing beside the soul, which is in the form of consciousness; when whatever is, is the true self or the consciousness. Consciousness converted in to waking or dream. And waking or dream is converted into deep sleep. Thus the substance of the three states is one and the same. Thus the substance itself is witness of the three states. Therefore, the substance and witness are one in essence. The essence is consciousness. The consciousness is the ultimate truth.
Whatever is claimed as me and mine is meaningless from the ultimate standpoint because there is no second thing exists other then consciousness.
Consciousness is everything, then there is nothing exist other then consciousness. Lectures limit consciousness. If one wants to overcome the physical conditioning of consciousness, then he has to realize the fact that, self is not physical but it is formless soul, which is in the form of consciousness. So there is room for duality in reality, therefore the birth, life, death and world are mere illusion created out of consciousness.
Having renounced the three states [illusion] mentally, one perceives the ultimate truth, through non-dual wisdom. Whatever prevails without the three states is the ultimate truth.
You think you are apart from the universe. It is not so. You and your experience of the universe appear together and disappear together. You exist within the universe. For the universe to exist you have to exist first. For god to exist you have to exist first. Therefore, it is necessary to verify the facts about your own existence first, to unfold the mystery.
Theresa is name given to the body. You did not have this name before christening. Only when you started identifying with your name and form, all these burden and bondage of the duality arises. You and your experience of the universe exist only in waking experience. Same way as the dream entity and the dream universe exists in dream. The dream becomes unreal when waking takes place. Similarly, the waking becomes unreal, when you realize the self is not the body with name Theresa, but the self is the formless knower of the body with the name Theresa. Thinking the universe as something separate from the Theresa [body] is cause of the individuality.
You have to become aware o the fact that, your individuality and your individual experience of the universe are reality within the waking experience. Thus all your fear desire and ups and downs of life are reality within the waking experience. Waking experience appears and disappears same way as the dream appears as disappears. You don’t consider the dream as reality when it disappears, because you are in waking. You have to realize the fact that, waking experience is also as unreal as the dream, because the witness of the three states is formless and apart.
This is possible only when you mentally trace the knower [formless witness] of your body and your experience of the universe together. Therefore, the one which knows your body with the name Theresa, and Theresa’s experience of the universe is apart from the knower, which is formless. The knower has to exist prior to knowing. Therefore, your body with name and its experience of the universe is something known. Therefore, the knower is not Theresa, but the formless knower of the Theresa and her experience of the universe. Therefore, it is erroneous to view and judge and conclude the truth as Theresa, because the one which knows Theresa and her experience of universe is formless and apart. If you think as Theresa then it leads to intellectuality and imagination. If you try to verify the facts of Theresa’s existence through deeper enquiry by peeling the known [mind] from the knower [soul] then you will realize self is not body with the name Theresa but it is formless.
You have to renounce the ignorance of accepting the body with the name as self. By accepting your-self as Theresa is the cause of experiencing the birth, life, death and the world as reality.
Now what is body with the name and the experience of the universe? Body with the name Theresa and her experience of the universe is too consciousness [soul]. Therefore, the whole experience of diversity is created out of single clay and that clay is consciousness, which is formless. When everything is consciousness, then there is no second thing exists, other than consciousness [soul]. Hence it is non-dual.
Thinking the self as Theresa is the cause of the ignorance. By realizing self is not Theresa but self is consciousness the physical structure built on the false base of Theresa will become a mere mirage created out of consciousness.
Therefore it is necessary to learn to view and judge the worldview not on the base of Theresa as self but on the base of consciousness [soul] as self to realize our physical existence which is full of pleasure or pain is mere illusion.
It takes a long time because you have conditioned to view and judge the worldview as Theresa. To overcome physical conditioning you have to renounce the ignorance and realize the self is not Theresa but it is formless soul, which is in the form of consciousness. Only by perfect understanding you will become aware of the ultimate reality. Thus all your fear and anxiety are reality within the illusion, because Theresa and her experience of the universe are reality within the illusion.
Please learn to think on the base the formless knower [soul] of Theresa and her experience of the universe, not as Theresa, then all your doubts and confusion will get cleared.
As one move ahead in his path he becomes aware of the fact that, many things what we consider as truth and hold on to it, becomes meaningless. We have to hold on to the formless witness of the three states, not the three states which are mere illusion. Mentally holding on the formless witness and by negating the three states as illusion, then the witness alone will prevail.
Truth which has no basis is usually religion or a mere catalogue of ignorant opinions; people prefer it because it can be got more easily. A religious philosophy based on the physical self/ego is worthless from the standpoint of truth.
Truth is incomplete and inaccurate without reasoning. Truth means certain and exact knowledge. The science which limits it to its practical applications such modern machines, are wrong because science is only physical based wisdom. There is no need to learn any practical science in order to get the ultimate truth. Science is very helpful to give more comforts for mankind. But the ultimate truth is beyond physical based science. But one has to have certain knowledge of the fact that, the self is not physical before indulging in pursuit of truth.
Only through reason based on the soul as self one gets the exactness and certitude of knowledge therefore he acquires the Self-Knowledge/Non-dual wisdom. When one has an exact and certain knowledge of un-contradictable truth he can utilize it for the guiding the fellow seekers. The people who assume without any proof, have untrained reason.
