Logic is egocentric.

Trevor Lightbown Can you explain what you mean by reason and logic.
Surely there must be stillness, silence, emptiness of reason and thought as the person in order to realize "that" witness who I am, not me thought.

Are you saying that thought as reason, logic or doubt are required tools to start with, then discarded with strikes of insight and realization of the witness being truth as self?Can you explain what you mean by reason and logic. 

John Troy That is where I would appreciate a bit of edification, as well.

Dearest Trevor, 

The thought cannot form without form. The form cannot exist without the universe. The universe ceases to exist without the waking experience. The waking experience ceases to exist without the ignorance. The ignorance ceases to exist without illusion.  The illusion ceases to exist without consciousness. Thus it is erroneous base the truth on the thoughts. 

 The self is like deep sleep.  there is stillness in deep sleep because there is neither the waking experience nor the dream. but deep sleep is not wisdom because it is still the state of ignorance. realizing the the whole waking and the whole dream experience  are mere mirage created out of consciousness and  no second thing exists other than consciousness in the midst of duality or waking experience leads to self-awareness.  thus perfect understanding and conviction is required to know what is what in order  understand and assimilate ultimate truth or Brahman .

That is why great Advitha sage Sri Sankara says  [VC]

60. The Scriptures consisting of many words are a dense forest which merely causes the mind to ramble. Hence men of wisdom should earnestly set about knowing the true nature of the Self.

61. For one who has been bitten by the serpent of Ignorance, the only remedy is the knowledge of Brahman. Of what avail are the Vedas and (other) Scriptures, Mantras (sacred formulae) and medicines to such a one?

62. A disease does not leave off if one simply utter the name of the medicine, without taking it; (similarly) without direct realisation one cannot be liberated by the mere utterance of the word Brahman.

63. Without causing the objective universe to vanish and without knowing the truth of the Self, how is one to achieve Liberation by the mere utterance of the word Brahman ? — It would result merely in an effort of speech.

It is only in elementary stages people think of thoughtlessness is wisdom. In deep sleep or Samadhi there are no thoughts but it is not wisdom. The wisdom is to realize the ultimate truth in the midst of waking experience by realizing the body is not body, the ego is not ego the world is not world but they are mere mirage created out of consciousness.then only there is unity in diversity in mental realm.  when there is unity in diversity in the mental realm there is stillness. 

It is necessary to drop all accumulated knowledge than only it becomes easy to grasp the non dual truth. Since everyone is stuck with their accepted truth. I am writing the blogs from every angle so that they can get convinced and drop the inborn conditioning which is present as ‘I’ or I AM.   But if the seeker is serious he can grasp it with few words. But it is impossible because of the strong conditioning and egocentric reason.  Until the reasoning based is rectified from form to formless it is very difficult to understand and assimilate the non-dualistic or Advaitic truth. 

Sri, Sankara himself has warned us not to use ambiguous words, and to practice semantic analysis in his book "Definition of one's own Self. [" Page 199, v.24 of "Sankara's Selected Works]

Sri, Sankara founded his Advaita Vedanta either on reason independent of sruti or on sruti confirmed by reason."   Sri, Sankara's commentary on the Mandukya Upanishad, II, 1:  This [the unreality of duality] is borne out by the Srutis ... But it is possible also to show the unreality of the object world even from pure reasoning, and this second chapter is undertaken for that purpose.

 Sri, Sankara himself had often said that his philosophy was based on Sruti, or revealed scripture.  This may be because Sri, Sankara addressed the ordinary man, who finds security in the idea of causality and thus in the idea of God—and Revelation is indispensable to prove the latter.  He believed that those of superior intelligence, have no need of this idea of divine causality, and can therefore dispense with Sruti and arrive at the truth of Non-Dualism by pure reason. 

Reason is the highest mental faculty.   The egocentric reason is called intellect and soul centric  reason is wisdom.  The logic is based on egocentricity. "Through soul centric Reason seeker reaches the ultimate end." The logic and intellect are useful in practical life within the practical world but they cannot transport the seeker beyond duality.

Logic is not the same as my Reason. There should be a distinction between them. Logic cannot know the ultimate truth  because it is of intellect and  not the soul centric reason. soul centric Reason can know the ultimate truth or Brahman. Logic applies only to the objective (seen) world. Intellectuals have not analyzed the mind itself yet. Hence they cannot understand a Gnani. If the invisible Witness Self could see itself.

Reasoning in Non-dual is thinking applied to all three states to prove something. It is in this sense that used the word non-dual, which religious scholars do not grasp.

Reasoning must not be confused with intellectual argument. The latter is used by legal counsels for logical building up of evidence of seen objects only but the former is used in truth seeking to refer to evidence of all three states. Reason sees the appearance and disappearance of objects including ego; whereas logical intellect is limited to them alone.

How can you witness the mind of another? All one can do is to witness his bodily actions and guess at the mind behind them. Yet psychologists, especially behaviourists and make this error.

 Spiritual view is that one can only know one’s own mind; never another man's mind. Even thought-reading is only looking first into one’s own mind, and saying what one believes is in the other man's mind. Hence it is one’s own mind, and saying what you believe is in the other can's mind. But is your mind con-fined to one’s physical body? No. It is pervading everywhere and in everything in all the three states as their formless substance; hence it is the same as the other man's mind. This renders telepathy possible, but the thought reading must still be done by one’s own mind, not another's; one knows of the other man's only such thoughts as appear in one’s mind, and therefore it is really and ultimately one’s own mind one knows.

When science, it does not mean mere elementary scientific facts about oxygen and hydrogen, but advanced science, that truth to which it leads, the meaning and aim of all science.

Those mystics who say one has to rise beyond reason are still ignorant. Common sense tells one that the only way to distinguish between stone and a cotton is to use the intelligence. Otherwise one will try to eat cotton! That is, to arrive at the truth of any matter or objects, one must use reason.

 How much more when one wants to arrive at the truth of life, and the universe? This is the only way.

Inquiry and reasoning means that without thinking about the truth of it one cannot attain it. The mind must be used in reasoning: it is kept quiet in yoga, there is no possibility of knowing the ultimate truth, because the instrument of knowledge--the mind--is not functioning. Inquiry and reasoning depends entirely upon Reason, i.e. reason.

If contradictions are present, how can one be certain anything is true? Hence truth must be the uncontradictable. To the extent that one shows there is no possibility of difference, one gets at truth.

Doubt is an essential tool in pursuit of truth.

Perhaps because of people’s inherited religious background, they have a tendency to regard doubt as almost as an enemy because religion is based on blind belief. People feel that if they have doubts, it means that they are denying the teachings and that they should really have unquestioning faith. In organized religion, unquestioning faith is considered a desirable quality.

In pursuit of truth is pursuit of verification of facts. One has to   Investigate,” not “blindly believe.” An inquiring mind is not regarded as a drawback in pursuit of truth. However, one who says, “This is not part of my mental framework, therefore I don’t believe it,” is not a receptive to self-knowledge, and such an attitude is a great disadvantage for those who aspire to follow any spiritual path. But one who is receptive, and questions and doesn’t accept things simply because they are said, but he uses his own reason and investigates on his own till he finds the un-contradictable truth. 

Many teachers have their own doctrine. Each claims that his particular philosophy and practice is the truth, but they all contradict each other. Thus they put everyone in total confusion. Many people are confused. This confusing situation is the starting point of pursuit of truth. One should not take anything on trust merely because it has passed down through tradition, or because his teachers say it, or because his elders have taught him, or because it’s written in some famous scripture. When he has verified the validity of his belief on his own and found to be right and true, then he can accept it.”

All through the ages it has been understood that the doctrine is there to be investigated and experienced by each individual. So one should not be afraid to doubt, it is right for one to inquire. But he needs to inquire with all receptiveness, not with the idea that everything that fits our preconceived notions is right and anything that does not is automatically wrong. One must have courage to accept the truth and reject untruth in pursuit of truth. If one has a set pattern in place, and everything he comes across must either be stretched out or cut down to fit it. This just distorts everything and prevents from grasping and assimilating the truth. Thus, noting has to be accepted as truth without verification of the facts. 

If we come across certain things that we find difficult to accept even after careful investigation, that doesn’t mean the whole investigation has to be thrown overboard.  Even after many years of investigation, one may still find certain things that they are not sure about it. People to go to some guru and ask him about some of these unsolved queries which they did not find proper answers, and he may say some answers based on the some doctrine, which also is inadequate and not satisfying answer.  

When Arjuna says in Verse 63, Chap.18, Gita, that all his doubts are cleared, he means his doubts on every question. But this happy state could not have been reached if he had not begun by having doubts and asking questions and demanding proofs. 

When Krishna tells Arjuna to overcome doubt by the sword of wisdom, he does not mean that Arjuna should give up his doubt and believe, as the Pundits interpret it, but that he should keep on thinking about his doubts until they are solved; that he should not stop until this point is reached.

No conceptual God can exist, apart from consciousness

No conceptual God can exist, apart from consciousness

People are not aware of the fact that, there is no individual God can exist, apart from consciousness, which is in the form of consciousness. Thus the consciousness is the consciousness.  Consciousness is the true self.   If there is no consciousness, then there is no body, no ego, no universe, no religion and no conceptual god. 

People think that there must be a creator of this universe. If one thinks physical entity or ego  as self, then there is a creator, but if one thinks the consciousness or consciousness  as the Self, then there is nothing exists other than the consciousness, which is the true self. 

If one objectifies and sees a universe, then he is bound to see many things beside himself and postulate a God, the creator. Body, God and world rise and set together from, and into, the Self/consciousness. If God is apart from the Self/consciousness, then He would be Self-less, that is, outside existence, that is, non-existent.

Mahaayaanists who say:- Buddha due to his excellent skill preached the truth in different ways depending on the aptitude of his disciples.

Gaudapada says that:-  the merciful Veda teaches karma and upaasana to people of lower and middling intellect, while jnana is taught to those of higher intellect.

So they clearly indicate rituals and theories are not meant for those who are searching for the higher knowledge or wisdom.   

Ish Upanishads :-

Vidya and Avidya both are hindrances to Self-knowledge, but Vidya is even worse than Avidya. The word Vidya is used here in a special sense; here it means worshipping gods and goddesses. By worshipping gods and goddesses you will go after death to the world of gods and goddesses. But will that help you? The time you spend there is wasted, because if you were not there you could have spent that time moving forward towards Self-knowledge, which is your goal. In the world of gods and goddesses you cannot do that, and thus you go deeper and deeper into darkness.

Avidya is Karma and therefore a hindrance. You perform Avidya - i.e., you perform Agnihotra and other sacrifices. This is a roundabout way of purifying the mind, and it is also groping in the dark. But it may not have as heavy a toll on your time and energy as the other.

Ishopanishad "They are steeped in ignorance and sunk into the greatest depth of misery who worships the matter, instead of the All-Pervading God and those who worship things born of matter like trees, animals, man, etc. are sunk deeper in misery." Katha Upanishad says:

[Upanishads Nikhilananda]

Fools dwelling in darkness, but thinking themselves wise and erudite, go round and round, by various tortuous paths, like the blind led by the blind. [Ch II-5 P-14]

It indicates that the one who is ignorant [darkness] of the true self [Ataman] searches truth by accumulating knowledge of every path and practice and uncertain about the truth, and thinks every path leads towards reality. The ignorance of the true self leads one towards unreality or hallucination.

Bhad upanishd: - This Self is dearer than a son, dearer than wealth, dearer than everything else, because It is innermost. If one holding the Self dear were to say to a person who speaks of anything other than the Self as dear, that he, the latter, will lose what he holds dear—and the former is certainly competent to do so—it will indeed come true. One should meditate upon the Self alone as dear. He who meditates upon the Self alone as dear—what he holds dear will not perish. [Bhad  upanishd -8-p- -211]

It is the first instance of monism in organized religion. Vedic religion remains the only religion with this concept. To call this concept 'God' would be imprecise. 

The closest interpretation of the term can be found in the Taittariya Upanishad (II.1):- where Brahman is described in the following manner: Satyam Jnanam Anantam Brahman - "Brahman is of the nature of truth, knowledge and infinity". Thus, Brahman is the origin and end of all things, material or otherwise. Brahman is the root source and Divine Ground of everything that exists, and does not exist. It is defined as unknowable and Satchidananda (Truth-Consciousness-Bliss).

 Since it is eternal and infinite, it comprises the only truth. The goal of Vedic relgion, through the various yogas, is to realize that the conciousness (Atman) is actually nothing but Brahman.

 The Vedic pantheon of gods is said, in the Vedas and Upanishads, to be only higher manifestations of Brahman. For this reason, "ekam sat" (all is one), and all is Brahman. 

Several mahā-vākyas, or great sayings, indicate what the principle of Brahman is:-

prajnānam brahma[1]

            "Brahman is knowledge"

ayam ātmā brahma[2]

            "The Self (or the Conciousness) is Brahman "

aham brahmāsmi[3]

            "I am Brahman"

tat tvam asi[4]

            "You are that"

sarvam khalv idam brahma[5]

            "All this that we see in the world is Brahman",

sachchidānanda brahma[6][7]

            "Brahman is existence, consciousness, and bliss".

Why go round and round, by various tortuous paths

When the Vedas and Upanishad declare that Consciousness or Atman is actually nothing but Brahman, then why go round and round, by various tortuous paths, like the blind led by the blind. One has to realize the fact that, the mind is in form of universe.  Trace the source of mind and realize that source is consciousness. The mind rises from consciousness as waking or dream and subsides as deep sleep.   

In Mandukya Upanishad Brahman and Atman are defined as same:

सर्वं ह्येतद् ब्रह्मायमात्मा ब्रह्म सोयमात्मा चतुष्पात् / sarvam hyetad brahmaayamaatmaa brahm soyamaatmaa chatushpaat – 

Mandukya Upanishad, verse-2

Translation:

sarvam(सर्वम्)- Whole/All/Everything; hi(हि)- Really/Just/Surely/Indeed; etad(एतद्)- This here/This; brahm(ब्रह्म)- Brahm/Brahman; ayam(अयम्)- This/Here; aatmaa(आत्मा)- Atma/Atman; sah(सः)- He; ayam(अयम्)- This/Here; chatus(चतुस्)- Four/Quadruple; paat(पात्)- Step/Foot/Quarter

Fragmented Verse:

सर्वम् हि एतद् ब्रह्म अयम् आत्मा ब्रह्म सः अयम् आत्मा चतुस पात् / sarvam hi etad brahm ayama aatmaa brahm sah ayam aatmaa chatus paat

Simple Meaning:-

All indeed is this Brahman; This Atman is Brahman; He, this Atman has four steps/quarters.

While Brahman lies behind the sum total of the objective universe, some human minds boggle at any attempt to explain it with only the tools provided by reason. Brahman is beyond the senses, beyond the mind, beyond intelligence, beyond imagination. Indeed, the highest idea is that Brahman is beyond both existence and non-existence, transcending and including time, causation and space, and thus can never be known in the same material sense as one traditionally 'understands' a given concept or object.

Imagine a person who is blind from birth and has not seen anything. Is it possible for us to explain to him the meaning of the colour red. Is any amount of thinking or reasoning on his part ever going to make him understand the sensation of the colour red? In a similar fashion the idea of Brahman cannot be explained or understood through material reasoning or any form of human communication. Brahman is like the colour red; those who can sense it cannot explain or argue with those who have never sensed it.

Brahman is considered the all-pervading consciousness which is the basis of all the animate and inanimate entities and material. (brahmano hi pratisthaham, Bhagavad Gita 14.27)

In Advaita Vedanta: - Brahman is without attributes and strictly impersonal. It can be best described as infinite Being, infinite Consciousness and infinite Bliss. It is pure knowledge itself, similar to a source of infinite radiance. Since the Advaitins regard Brahman to be the Ultimate Truth, so in comparison to Brahman, every other thing, including the material world, its distinctness, the individuality of the living creatures and even Ishvara (the Supreme Lord) itself are all untrue. Brahman is the effulgent cause of everything that exists and can possibly exist. Since it is beyond human comprehension, it is without any attributes, for assigning attributes to it would be distorting the true nature of Brahman. Advaitins believe in the existence of both Saguna Brahman and Nirguna Brahman; however they consider Nirguna Brahman to be the absolute supreme truth. 

Chandogya Upanishad:- One who meditates upon and realizes the self discovers that everything in the cosmos-- energy and space, fire and water, name and form, birth and death, mind and will, word and deed, mantram and meditation--all come from the Self.

So, it clearly says the one who meditate upon the self [consciousness] discovers that everything in the cosmos-- energy and space, fire and water, name and form, birth and death, mind and will, word and deed, mantram and meditation--all come from the Self. Therefore , there is a need to know the fact that ,the true self is not physical but the soul in order to realize the fact that :  the cosmos-- energy and space, fire and water, name and form, birth and death, mind and will, word and deed, mantram and meditation--all come from the Self, which is in the form of consciousness. 

Atman is Brahman. Brahman  or Christ or the Absolute is alone real; this waking is unreal; and the three states are non-different from Brahman or Christ. 

Whatever is, is Brahman or Christ. Brahman or Christ itself is absolutely homogeneous. All difference and plurality are illusory."  Brahman or /Christ is not a person, as the Absolute is not this. But if one wants to call it God or Paramataman, then fine. But it is not a person. Personifying it can make it easier to understand.

To realize the ultimate truth is the prime goal.  

All the scriptures indicate that Atman is Brahman, and Brahman is ultimate truth. Therefore the consciousness, which is in the form of consciousness, is ultimate truth.  Thus to realize the ultimate truth is the prime goal.   A well-directed inquiry, analysis and reasoning will lead one to his non-dual destination. 

Studying of scriptures is not necessary

The Upanishads clearly indicate:- 

This Atman cannot be attained by the study of the Vedas, or by intelligence, or by much hearing of sacred books. It is attained by him alone whom It chooses. To such a one Atman reveals Its own form. [Katha Upanishad Ch-II -23-P-20]

This Atman cannot be attained through study of the Vedas, nor through intelligence, nor through much learning. He who chooses Atman—by him alone is Atman attained. It is Atman that reveals to the seeker Its true nature. [3 –page-70 Mundaka Upanishad (Upanishads by Nikilanada)

Raman Mahrshi explains [in page 111/112- practical guide to know yourself]:-

Q: D: Is it not necessary to study the Vedas or at least Prastnatraya[Bagvad gita.Dasoponishad and Brahma Sutra all with commentaries] to ensure firm realization?

A: Baghvan: - No. Do you need all that to see yourself? All that is intellectual wealth, useful in explain doubts and difficulties if others rise them if you yourself encounter them in course of thinking. But to attain realization, all that is not necessary. You want fresh water to drink, but you do not require all the water of the river Ganges to quench your quest.

Raman Maharshi said fortunate are the one who do not lose themselves in the labyrinths of philosophy. Bhagwan says: Take Vedanta, for instance: it speaks of 15 pranas the names and functions of it   which the student is asked to commit memory. Will it not be sufficient if he thought only one prana does the whole work of maintaining the body? Again the antakaran is said to think, to desire, to will, to reason etc. Why all these details? Has anyone seen antakarana, or all these pranas? Do they really exist? They are conceptual divisions invented by teachers of philosophy by their excessive analysis. Where do all these concepts end? Why should confusion created and then explained away? Fortunate is the man who does not lose himself in the labyrinths of philosophy, but goes straight to the source from which they all arise. (GURU RAMANA .By S.S Cohen -vii Danger of philosophy-Page -58-59)

The above passages further prove that: Self-Knowledge cannot be attained by study of the Vedas and intellectual understanding or by bookish knowledge.  Therefore there is no use of studying the Vedas and other scriptures in order to acquire the non-dual wisdom.  That is why Buddha rejected the scriptures, and even Sri, Sankara indicated that, the ultimate truth lies beyond religion, concept of god and scriptures.  

They alone in this world are endowed with the highest wisdom who are firm in their conviction of the sameness and birthlessness of Ataman. The ordinary man does not understand their way. [Chapter IV — Alatasanti Prakarana 95-P-188 in Upanishads by Nikilanada]

Therefore, there is no use of taking strain to understand assimilate the conceptual divisions invented by teachers of philosophy by their excessive analysis. There are more and more doubts and confusions, if one tries to understand and assimilate the ultimate truth through scriptures. 

 Why to follow the path of doubts and confusion by losing oneself in the labyrinths of philosophy, when one can realize the ultimate truth without them.  By mentally tracing the source of the mind from where it rises and subsides one becomes aware of the fallacy of the mind, which rises as waking or dream and subsides as deep sleep.  The mind raises form consciousness and subsides as consciousness.  Therefore, there is a need for perfect understanding assimilation of non-dual truth.  

There is no need to renounce the worldly life to get Self-Realization. Any householder can attain it if has the inner urge. 

ASHTAVAKRA SAMHITA: - "The man of knowledge, though living like an ordinary man, is contrary to him and only those like him understand his state.