Only when one gets rid of the ignorance through Self-Knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana then he becomes aware of 'what is truth' and 'what is untruth'

There is no need to ignore anything. We all including the whole universe exist because of ignorance. We are living within the ignorance. If there is no    ignorance then there is no separation, no duality, no mind, no world, it is only oneness. Only when one gets rid of the ignorance through Self-Knowledge  or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana then he  becomes aware of 'what is truth' and 'what is untruth'.  The ignorance holds the duality or universe or  illusion as reality. Ignorance is the cause of experiencing the birth, life, death and world as reality.

Therefore, one has to find the root of this ignorance, which holds the whole physical existence(universe) as reality. We are discussing the truth within the state of ignorance. Therefore, how can we get rid of the ignorance, when we are unaware of it?And because of ignorance we experience the duality or waking or illusion as reality.  Therefore, there is a need to verify the truth of our true  existence to get rid of the ignorance. 

Pursuit of truth is a mental journey. There is no need for any teaching or teacher in this journey of self-verification.  If one has  the intense urge to know the truth, then that urge will take him to his spiritual destination. 

One has to learn to think and reason on his own without the aid of his accumulated knowledge, to get rid of the ignorance.   One should not be judge anything on the base of logic, intellectuality, comparing everything with the accumulated knowledge and perverse thinking, which are greatest obstacle in pursuit of truth.  If one is ready to do this then he is ready to move forward towards his non dual destination. 

A well directed inquiry, analysis and deeper reasoning with all humility, seriousness and sincerity will definitely lead one towards realizing the ultimate truth.  one should not hold any teacher or teaching or accumulated knowledge as yardstick.

One has to try to find answers for himself without imagining it  but pondering through deep thinking:-

If the self is not physical then:-

v  With what one is able to know himself as a person and perceive the world?

v  Whether the mind is within the physical body or physical body and the world are within the mind. 

Whatever answers comes from within   one has to verify   through deeper  reasoning  constantly, until the inner dialogue starts.  When  one starts getting answers from within, than  all the doubts and confusion starts getting cleared.  Then there is no need for mental spoon feeding. 

 It takes a long time because the subconscious not receptive to accept the new truth.  But one’s it becomes aware of the fact that, the self is formless (soul or consciousness) then it will drop all the accumulated knowledge based on the ego or waking entity or physical self.    If the subconscious receptive this will happen instantly, otherwise it happens gradually.  

Once the reasoning base is rectified from form(ego) base to formless(soul) base then one becomes aware what is truth and what is untruth and he will be able to reject the untruth mentally. When untruth is rejected whatever prevails is the ultimate truth or Brahman.  One should not expect this to happen instantly. It takes time it is a mental journey it is inner work through deeper thinking and reasoning. One has to have lots of patience and humility in pursuit of truth. 

Since this is the vast subject it cannot be discussed in length in one or two posting. I am not a teacher and my postings are not  teaching. Self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana does not require any guru and it does not depend on any teachings. I am just sharing my conviction derived from my inner journey with fellow seekers. 

Adyatmic Dicussion -60

• Cliff Shack If time actually existed I would. ;)

  
  

  17 hours ago ·
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  Santthosh Kumaar Dear Cliff , I respect your views and wisdom. as per my conviction derived from deeper self-search:- Until ignorance is there form,time and space are reality.When one becomes aware of the fact that, ,form,time and space are one in essence and that essence is formless consciousness, than no second thing exists other than consciousness,which is the inner most self. The form,time and space appear together and disappear together. The form,time and space are mere illusion created out of consciousness. Without consciousness form,time and space ceases to exist.
  

  17 hours ago ·
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  Cliff Shack Do they exist with consciousness? If so, where and when?

  
  

  16 hours ago ·
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  Santthosh Kumaar Consciousness exist with or without the form,time and space. The form,time and space appear in waking or dream and they disappear as deep sleep. The one which is aware of the coming and going of the three states is formless and apart. The consciousness is within the three states as their formless substance and it is apart from the three states, as their formless witness. It is apart because it is not a thing or entity or identity within the three states. Consciousness is not limited to the individual because it pervades all the three states as their formless substance and witness.Until we base our judgment on the waking entity or ego ,which is the false self within the false experience[universe or waking] it is very difficult to understand and assimilate the truth beyond form,time and space. Scientific inventions say:-
  
  Why You Are Not Your Brain, and Other Lessons from the Biology of Consciousness.
  by :AlvaNoë. Hill and Wang, 2009
  
  Alva No, a University of California, Berkeley, philosopher and cognitive scientist, argues that after decades of concerted effort on the part of neuroscientists, psychologists and philosophers "only one proposition about how the brain makes us conscious ... has emerged unchallenged: we don't have a clue." The reason we have been unable to explain the neural basis of consciousness, he says, is that it does not take place in the brain. Consciousness is not something that happens inside us but something we achieve it is more like dancing than it is like the digestive process. To understand consciousness the fact that we think and feel and that a world shows up for us we need to look at a larger system of which the brain is only one element. Consciousness requires the joint operation of brain, body and world. "You are not your brain. The brain, rather, is part of what you are."
  ---
  If the brain [body] is not the self then what is self? Therefore, there is a need to understand and assimilate the knowledge of the self through deeper inquiry, analysis and reasoning in order to unfold the mystery of the ‘I’.
  
  One cannot know the truth until one knows the stuff from which the mind is created. The goal of pursuit of truth is to realize the fact that, the true self is not physical but it is the formless soul/ spirit/consciousness.
  
  When one puts aside the imagination and has the thinker-- what does he get with thinking—he can get only a thoughts. Meditation is only an effort; it is imagination, an idea; the soul/consciousness remaining the same with or without ideas. 

  
  As a person perceiving the world one is unaware of the fact that, he and his experience of the world are within the object. He as a person is completely unaware of the fact that, he is not the subject at all. The subject is formless and it is apart from the three states. The subject is not an entity or identity within the three states. Therefore, judging the truth on the base of the object as self is erroneous. Such judgment leads to all sorts of speculation, doubts and confusions.
  When one is absorbed in thinking of anything, he is thinking within the object [mind] that which witnesses all these three states is within but always apart. 

  
  As a thinker he gets only thoughts. The thinker and thoughts are part of the illusion. Whenever there is thoughts and experiences, there is duality [mind]. Where there is duality [mind] there is always ignorance. Where there is ignorance there is illusion. The duality, mind and ignorance illusion are one and the same thing and they appear together and disappear. The ignorance vanishes when the wisdom dawns. 

  
  The knower of the three states is within the three states but it is formless and apart from the three states. 

  
  The whole universe and people and all its contents are within the mind. The truth is hidden within the mind but it is without the mind. As a Man one thinks the mind is within the physical body but the truth is the body and the universe are within the mind. Until this mistake is rectified to get the non -dual truth is impossibility. Man thinks he is an individual separate from the world within the mind which appears as waking or dream and disappears as deep sleep. Therefore, one has to analyze the three states in order to realize the witness of the three states is formless and apart from the three states. Thus the man is not the witness of the three states. Realizing this fact, it is erroneous to judge the truth on the waking entity. 

  
  It is impossible to trace the mind within the physical body, because the physical body and the world are within the mind. The idea of multiplicity of mind cannot be accepted. The dream appears as a whole with the dream entity, with people and dream world. The dream is witnessed as whole without the physical apparatus. The same witness witnesses the waking and deep sleep as a whole. This truth has to be grasped to realize the fact that, the waking entity is not the witness of the three states. Only when this truth is grasped, then it becomes easier to assimilate the Self-Knowledge.

  
  

  16 hours ago ·
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  Santthosh Kumaar That is fine. The truth is not custom made to suit every mindset. One has to verify on his own and accept only un-contradictable truth. The consciousness is self-evident. It is not established by extraneous proofs. It is not possible to deny the consciousness, because it is the very essence of the one who denies it. The consciousness is the basis of all kinds of knowledge, presuppositions and proofs. The consciousness is the true self. Consciousness is within, consciousness is without; consciousness is before, consciousness is behind; consciousness is on the right, consciousness is on the left; consciousness is above and consciousness’s below. Until one thinks his body as body, ego as ego the universe as universe he remain in ignorance because he is still in ignorance and he is unaware of the fact that, they too are consciousness. 

  
  Swami Vivekananda said: - “You have to grow from the inside out. None can teach you, none can make you spiritual. There is no other teacher but your own soul.”

Everyone in the path of truth loves and respects the humanity in the practical world. Externally the seeker of truth love humanity and internally he is moving from ignorance to wisdom.

Everyone in the path of  truth loves and respects the humanity in the practical world. Externally the seeker of truth  love humanity and internally he is moving from ignorance to wisdom.

The mind rises from the formless soul, which is in the form of consciousness. The sense of ‘I’ rises as mind. The mind is in the form of universe. Thus ‘I’ is the mind or universe. Universe appears as waking or dream and disappears as deep sleep. Holding sense of ‘I’ limited to the ego is cause of separation. It makes one feel, he is an individual separate from the world and world existed prior to him, and he is born in it afterwards. Until one has this conviction, it is very difficult to grasp the non-dual truth.

Thus it is necessary to realize the self is neither the ego nor the world but is the witness of the ego, body and world together. The true self is formless witness of the three states. And it is also the formless substance of the three states, because without self the three states are non-existent. In reality the substance and witness are one in essence. The essence is consciousness and it is ultimate truth. The formless self is witness of the three states. And the formless witness is within the three states. And it is without the three states. And also it is apart from the three states. It is within the three states as their formless substance. And it is without the three states as their formless witness. And it is also apart from the three states because it not an entity or identity within the three states. 

I request everyone  not to hold anyone including me as a guru and yourself as a disciple because guru disciple theory is greatest obstacle in pursuit of truth. And one can find answers how the theories path and practices become hindrance or obstacle and blocks our realization has been discussed in FORMLESS PATH [FP] blogs. I tried to answer every question which arises to the seeker in his pursuit of truth in FP blogs so that he can find answers for his doubts and confusion with out discussion, debate and personal conversation. many intellectuals think that by provoking by perverted arguments  they will get the truth but they are only trying to exhibit their intellectuality.   

The yard stick based on the accumulated knowledge is the greatest hindrance in pursuit of truth. Lots of patience, humility is needed in pursuit of truth. Arguments on their point of view are the greatest hindrance in pursuit of truth. 

Thus holding any teacher and teaching or scriptures are the greatest hindrance in pursuit of truth. Devotional path, yogic path and path of love and humanity are meant for the practical life within the practical world and they are nothing to do with the path of truth or wisdom, because on the realm of truth the practical life and the practical world are mere illusion. Thus mixing them with path of truth or wisdom is like mixing oil into water. Intellectuality is based on individuality and individuality is egocentric. Thus the religious path, yogic path and intellectual path are great hindrance in pursuit of truth. Seekers of truth have to respect everyone’s views and wisdom without arguing but politely answering or keeping silence with others who try to cause disturbance with their egoic attitude. And never indulge condemning others who do not agree with each others view. Keeping internal distance with the people who indulge in perverted arguments and provokers is very much necessary in pursuit of truth. The inner calmness has to be gained which is very much necessary in pursuit of truth to move inward.


Self-knowledge will interest only few people; the rest are interested in Religion, yoga other paths like path of love and humanity and path of pleasure hunting. Thus path of love and humanity is necessary in practical life and practical world and we have to respect those people who are immersed in the path of love and humanity. They are doing great job for the humanity. Many people who have chosen path of love and humanity indulge in condemning others without realizing they are propagators of love and by condemning others the seed of love cannot be sowed. The love and hate are made of the same clay, which is consciousness. It is wrong to assume those who have chosen path of wisdom are renounced the outer world and gone ashtray. They too are actively involved in practical life and indulge in loving humanity. Renouncing the world and taking Sanyasa is religious path not the path of truth. The seeker of truth is ever active as a householder and it is his own personal journey he knows what he wants and what he is doing. I respect all those are in path of love and humanity and any other path. And everyone in the path truth loves and respects the humanity in the practical world. Externally he love humanity and internally he is moving from ignorance to wisdom.

It is not the body that has to get freedom but it is the self that is seeking freedom from experiencing the birth, life, death and universe as reality. Only when self-wakes up from the sleep of ignorance by realizing its formless nondual true nature the freedom happens. For this self has to drop the inborn samskara or conditioning of ‘I’ or ‘I AM’ by realizing self not ‘I’ or ‘I AM’.

Thus it is erroneous to think on the body base, when the self is not the body. If the self is not the body; than the individual life is nothing to do with the formless self. The experience of birth, life, death and the universe are part and parcel of the illusion. Thus one need not here enter into any account of the course that the soul with its ignorance takes after death—along the way of the fathers, or of the gods, or being debarred from either, according to its works and knowledge. Nor need one enter into any of the other psychological questions connected with the state of the soul after the death of the body. The self is not an individual and self is birthless, deathless, therefore it is erroneous to base the truth of the individual experience of birth, life, death, god and universe.


The universe or samsara remains the same for all except those who have attained the higher knowledge. He who has attained to the knowledge of the identity of the self with consciousness, which involves the distinction of the self from its ignorance and consequently its freedom from them, has thereby attained Moksha, or freedom. This is a freedom for which one has not to wait till his physical death, but it may be possessed even in this very life.

Advaitin orthodox hold virtue is essential for the attainment of Moksha or freedom. But when the self is not and individual this question is hardly a relevant one. It is not quite just to interpret the knowledge which brings freedom as if it were of the nature of a purely intellectual intuition.

As one goes in deeper self –search one becomes aware of the fact that: - The Upanishads are self-contradictory. Different scholars give different conflicting interpretations of them. Final authority therefore is using our own reason. This does not mean one need to give up the scriptures, but he should apply his reason to them. Reason is common to all, whereas orthodoxy belongs to separatist.

The scriptures are for ignorant masses, who wholly accept the material world as it presents itself. Gnana is for those who have begun to realize that things are not what they seem.

Scriptural citations may be quoted only after one has shown the reality and proved the truth, for then he can point out that the texts teach the same thing. If one quotes them before having demonstrated truth, then it is scholasticism.

Scriptures are of value only when dealing with persons who are incapable of understanding truth. They have no value as authority for those who use reason.

Reason is the common ground for all humanity, whereas the appeal to scriptural relations reaches only groups. Because all the religions are based on the false self and the false experience, there are so many conflicting ideas , many changes, divisions and subdivisions ,which leads to all sorts of doubts and confusions. When one meets with suffering and disappointment doubts arises. Doubts are absolutely necessary to make one inquire. Pursuit of truth is for getting rid of all doubts.