Adyathmic Discussion -382

Trev Light Bown:- The great problem with mind is that it makes an assumption before it is looks at what is.

You start every one of your posts with an assumption.

 
This is clear working of mind. Memory of a past blog to fit in with a your stone set belief. Post and paste mentality is never new an pure or open for insight.

The mind "I" is a person of past or future. Never has anything to say as true formless self. But an automation as a human robotized copier of text.

No Buddha ever post and paste old boy.

SK: - 

 Dearest Trev, 

It is not the problem with the mind but one  does not know what mind actually is. The ego, body and the world together is mind.  Till one thinks the mind is within the body he will remain in ignorance and he will experiences the duality as reality. Thus perfect understanding of ‘what is what’ necessary to understand what is mind and its nature.  Until one is egocentric everything as an assumption and imagination  but when one is soul-centric there is no scope for assumption and imagination. Thus it is necessary for the seeker of truth to realize the self is not the ego but the self is formless soul. If the self is soul then one has to be soul-centric to understand, assimilate and realize the Non-dualistic truth. The egocentricity is useful in practical life within the practical world. It takes a long time to learn to become soul-centric to understand assimilate ‘what is truth’ and what is untruth to mentally discard the untruth.      

  

Suppose whatever you are saying now if you had said in the dream, the dream becomes unreal when waking takes place. The dream entity and dream world, dream memory was reality within the dream. The waking becomes unreal when the wisdom dawns. The one who has the urge to acquire wisdom must investigate with all the humility to unfold the mystery of the ‘I’.  The one who judges on his own standpoint will never be able to go to the depth of the subject. Without perfect understanding of what is what it is very difficult to understand assimilate self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana.   

First investigate what is this ‘I’, which appears and disappears. When it appears it appears with you along with the world.  And when it disappears it disappears with you along with the world. You and the world are reality within your waking experience. The one which is witnesses the coming and going of the three states is not you (waking entity or ego) but the soul, the innermost self.     

   

When the self is not you (ego or waking entity or physical mind) then why you judge the worldview on your standpoint?  You have to drop judging the worldview (three states) to discover the truth. As one goes deeper and deeper than he will start understanding assimilating what I say otherwise he will always in the mode of misunderstanding. Self-knowledge or brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana cannot be imposed on others. 

Buddha had all the love and humility. Buddha never indulged in personal attacks he had all the patience to teach and wherever it was necessary he was in silent mode.    Buddha would have used post and paste if the facility was available in his time and also he did not use internet. There is no harm if any one pastes and post info taken  from his own blogs and his own  notes he is only sharing info with the fellow seekers. 

Sharing is giving info for the sake of goodness. As with all things, achieving a balance of peaceful communications is established with respect, humility, understanding and patience.

The misinterpretation is because of Buddha himself. Most of the questions were answered only by silence leaving many to interpret as per their understanding. The enlightenment of Buddha and which again was indirectly accepted by Sage Sri,  Gaudapada.

If one sticks himself as individual separate from the world and he born in this world and world existed prior to him and he is born afterwards until this conviction is there it is impossible to assimilate self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana because self-knowledge is not the knowledge of birth entity (you) but   it is the knowledge of birthless self.  The birthless self is the formless soul. The soul is without you, your memory and   your world. 

The past, present and future are part of the duality. The duality is present only when the I is present.  The ‘I’ is present only when the mind is present. The mind is present only when the universe is present. The universe is present only when the waking is present.  The ‘I’, the duality, the mind, the universe, the waking are one and the same. If the ‘I’ is absent   then the duality, the mind, the universe, the waking are absent.  

The memory belongs to the false self.  The memory belongs to individual whereas the self is not an individual. When the seeker investigates and able to realize the fact that, whatever is born, lives and dies is not the self but the self is that witnesses, the experience of birth, life, death and the world (witnessed) to gather,   thus it is necessary for the seeker to investigate and make sure that mind is not within the body but the body and the world are within the mind. And the body and the world together is mind. The body and the world are mere illusion created out of consciousness. The body and the world are one in essence. That essence is consciousness. Till this truth is not understood it is impossible to understand, assimilate and realize the Advaitic truth. 

The earliest ancient sages used the word ‘I’ to the witness of the three states not to the ego as moderns use it and think the ‘I’ without the body is self. The seeker has to understand the fact that the fact that ‘i’ is not the self but the witness of the ‘I’ is the true self, which is eternal. 

People think that the ‘soul’ or ‘spirit’ is something different from the mind. They believe that the mind is really two. This is the confusion among religionists and intellectuals. If ‘Soul’ has any meaning, if ‘spirit’ has any meaning, so long as one thinks of them, they are merely ideas. No-Mind is the highest: it is consciousness, non-dual wisdom.

The individual is a bundle of memories, desires within the waking or dream. The memories and desires are part of the duality. Therefore the individual self is entirely part and parcel of the mirage. Peoples ideas of that they will go to some world after death, some astral plane or religious heavens will disappear as nonsense with the disappearance of belief in the reality of the ‘I’.   

People think there is mind when he has thoughts, but when thoughts are not considered different from the soul which is present in the form of consciousness, then where is the division into, waking, dream and deep sleep etc.

People think that, more they think, the more they will get; but it is really an error. It remains only a thought and gives them back only thoughts.  Anything seen, observed, cannot be the Self or the Witness. 

Consciousness (soul) is the substance and the witness of the duality.  The duality is present in the form of mind. The Mind is present in the form of the universe. The universe appears as waking or dream and diapers as deep sleep. The one which is aware of the coming and going of the three states is neither the waking entity nor the dream entity but the formless soul, which is present in the form of consciousness.  When the soul becomes aware of its formless non-dual true nature in the midst of duality it is called self –awareness. It is foolish to limit the consciousness only to duality because the consciousness pervades all the three states 

Consciousness is the shoreless Non-dual Ocean. Consciousness is beyond form, time and space. Consciousness is beyond instinct, intellect, imagination and inspiration. It is unconscious of its true nature when it is in illusion. Only beyond illusion it is in its true nature. 

As per the scriptures the three "Ashrams" or stages in life were originally intended for three grades of intelligence thus:

v             Religion: low intellects had to do 'karmas' works, ritual actions, chanting of mantras and indulging in bajans and prayers etc.

v             Middle intellects:  Yoga: taking yellow robes, going to caves, ashrams etc.

v             High intellects: wisdom who wanted truth is concerned with no external rites or sanyasa but depend solely on soul-centric reasoning for their path.

Thus the seeker has to choose his path according to his choice.  Without intense urge to know the truth and sharpness to grasp the truth it is difficult to tread the path of wisdom or reason. Never mix different path with each other and make cocktail because it leads to all sorts of  doubts and confusion.  

The seeker should be beware of everything that is untrue: stick to truth and he shall succeed, may be slowly, but surely.

Adyathmic Discussion--381 (reincarnation)

Trev Light Bown:-  I was reading your latest post, when the subject of reincarnation arose in my mind. The evidence of near death experience and afterlife testimony is to vast a subject to just right off as illusion even though it is just that. But if it is then what if anything actually reincarnates. Then I saw this on Ramana Maharishi Site.

"Bhagavan on Reincarnation (Surpassing Love And Grace)

The real Self is continuous and unaffected. The reincarnating ego belongs to a lower plane, that of thought. It is transcended by Self-realization. Reincarnations are due to a spurious offshoot of Being and are therefore denied by the Buddhists. The human state is due to the mingling of the sentient with the insentient. Read the article ».

So there you have it. Just as I had figured out myself I see the confirmation.
The spirit that passes over and experiences an afterlife then reincarnates is none other than "I" false sense ego.

So the belief they hold will shape their after life experience and the hidden dark recesses of mind will manifest in life revision. Yet as Jesus says "My Fathers house has many mansions", these are levels of consciousness by lighter or more dense vibration as spiritualists have always stated.

So the mind/ego as spirit is what leaves the body at death, non the wiser than he was in the midst of life. At this point there may be void and peace beyond understanding as an uninterested observing witness. But most near death testimony then branches out with myriad belief systems that will end in the light at the end of the tunnel.

At this point is the true test of a Gnani.

SK: - The self is birthless therefore it is deathless. The one which is born lives and dies within the world (waking) is not the self.  The idea of reincarnation is based on the birth entity (waking entity or ego) which lives and dies within the illusory world (waking).   The self is the one which witnesses the coming and going of the dual (waking or dream) non-dual (deep sleep) experiences. When the experience of the birth, life and death takes place in the illusion then recantation also is part of the same illusion. 

The dream becomes unreal when waking takes place. Similarly the waking becomes unreal when wisdom dawns. Wisdom dawns when the soul, innermost self, consciously remains awake in its formless non-dual nature.  when the substance and witness of the three states are one in essence and that essence is consciousness. Then what value is there for the universe in, which the experience of birth, life death and reincarnation happens. Even you take reincarnation as reality but the reincarnation happen within the world, which is an illusion, on the standpoint of the formless soul, the innermost self.  On the standpoint of the innermost self. Without perfect understanding of what is what Self-knowledge is an impossibility. 'I based knowledge is false knowledge. trying to test  the truth on the base of false self and passing judgment is an err.   

 Dalai Lama said:-  Buddhism need not to be the best religion though it is most scientific and religion and inquisitive. But Buddhism has no answer to certain questions like existence of Atama [soul] and rebirth.   Dali lama said that as an individual he believes in rebirth as he had come across a few cases of rebirth.  Modern science, Dalai Lama hoped would unearth the mystery behind the rebirth. (In DH –dec-212009-Gulburga).

INNER PATH –BLOG--People who are caught up with idea of reincarnation and rebirth theories are not qualified for Self-Knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana because they accepted duality as reality

People who believes in reincarnation and rebirth theories are unaware of the fact that , their belief is based on   waking entity, which is the false self within the false experience. The waking entity itself is false self within the false experience, it means the present experience of birth, life, death and the world is falsehood.  Thus whatever is seen, known, believed and experienced as waking entity is bound to be falsehood because the soul or consciousness the innermost self is birthless because it is formless. Therefore the rebirth and reincarnation theory based on the false self is bound to be falsehood. 

Accepting in rebirth and reincarnation theory as reality is accepting false self(waking entity or ego)  as real self and false experience(waking) as reality. Self-realization is impossibility  if one accepts the present waking entity as real self because the self is neither the waking entity nor the self is dream entity but the self is formless soul ,which  witnesses  the coming and going  of the  three states without the physical apparatus

 The three states are impermanent but the soul or consciousness, which is the witness of the three states, is permanent and eternal.  in reality the three states are one in essence. and that essence is consciousness. Therefore there is no second thing exists other than consciousness.  Thus consciousness (Soul) is second to none.

Deeper self -search reveals the fact that, the waking experiences itself is illusion. It means the present experience of birth, life, death and the world are illusion. Thus the reincarnation theory based on the false self within the false experience is bound to be falsehood. When the waking entity is not the self than whatever theories is based on the waking entity imagined theory. 

 This imagined theory based on the waking entity or ego is for those lower minds set who are incapable of grasping the ultimate truth or Brahman.

People who are caught up with idea of reincarnation and rebirth theories are not qualified  for Self-Knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana because they accepted duality as reality . Birth implies duality and duality is falsehood from the ultimate standpoint.

--

From The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharishi
Edited by David Godman:-

Question:- is reincarnation true?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: - Reincarnation exists only so long as there is ignorance. There is really no reincarnation at all, either now or before. Nor will there be any hereafter. This is the truth.

[Note: Comments by David Godman: Most religions have constructed elaborate theories which purport to explain what happens to the individual soul after the death of the body. Some claim that the soul goes to heaven or hell while others claim that it is reincarnated in a new body.

Sri Ramana Maharshi taught that all such theories are based on the false assumption that the individual self or soul is real; once this illusion is seen through, the whole superstructure of after-life theories collapses. From the standpoint of the Self, there is no birth or death, no heaven or hell, and no reincarnation.

As a concession to those who were unable to assimilate the implications of this truth, Sri Ramana would sometimes admit that reincarnation existed. In replying to such people he would say that if one imagined that the individual self was real, then that imaginary self would persist after death and that eventually it would identify with a new body and a new life. The whole process, he said, is sustained by the tendency of the mind to identify itself with a body. Once the limiting illusion of mind is transcended, identification with the body ceases, and all theories about death and reincarnation are found to be inapplicable.]

Adyathmic Dicussion - 380 -(Meher Baba)

Trev light Bown :- Meher Baba does sound very much awake and living as Gnani as formless being. But was it really without a Guru or teacher.

He was student/disciple of Hazarath Babajan for a 7 year process of spiritual guidance. He had contact with 5 others who he referred to as "the 5 perfect masters".

 Then he spent 5 years with Upsani Maharaja who himself was a disciple of Sai Baba of Shirdi.

So it is possible that it was by shaktipat/grace of Guru that he found enlightenment as well as deep thinking and grasping by mind.

SK:- When one bifurcates mysticism from Meher Baba’s writing one smells pure Advaitic essence. He says the innermost self is God.  Thus he bases his self on the real self, which is the soul. Hazarath Babazan was his guru but his spiritual mother. Meher Baba declared 5 Perfect masters.  Hazarath Babazan was a real Gnani who always immersed in the self-awareness. Sai Baba of Shiradi had not accepted any one as his disciple. But everyone around him considered Sai Baba as their guru or God.  Upasani Baba was one of the many who considered Sai Baba as his Guru.   Meher Baba went to meet Sai Baba to request him to accept him as his disciple but seeing Meher Baba, Sai Baba proclaimed as Parvadigar ( Messiah or Avatar)  and did not accept him as his disciple but sent his to meet Upasani Baba. Sai Baba never accepted Meher Baba as disciple even though Meher Baba declared Sai Baba as his Guru.  Upasani Baba declared Meher Baba as his disciple.  These are all mystical business.  The Sai Baba and Meher Baba both were Sufi saints of highest order and also they were Gnanis.   

All these inspiring stories  of the saints are important in the preliminary stages of spiritual pursuit but later stages the seeker has to drop all these because when the seeker gets to know the world is an illusion he will realize whatever is happening within the world is bound to be illusion. When the whole universe is made of the single stuff than the form and names within the illusory world has no value. 

Meher Baba declared: - To love God as he ought to be loved, we must love for God and die for god, knowing that the goal of life is to know God, and find him as our own self. It means find god as our innermost self -- that is he insisted for self –realization.

Meher Baba said: - To love God as he ought to be loved, we must love for God and die for god, knowing that the goal of life is to know God, and find him as our own self.

To realize God is to attain liberation from the bondage of illusion. 

Live only to find and realize your true identity with your beloved God.

The energy which is expended in mere thinking, taking or writing is like steam which escapes through the whistle of railway engine …

That is why the sages have always insisted on practice rather than theory. This applies particularly to those who want to know and realize God.  

----

-----It means one has to one has to know and realize his inner most self is God and identify it has his true identity to find liberation from the bondage of  the illusion of birth, life, death and world (duality).   The goal of our life is to find and realize our identity with our beloved God, which is our innermost self. 

Neither Sai Baba nor Meher Baba were not the product of Shakti Path. Sai Baba and Meher Baba were real Gnanis for the seeker of truth and also they were guru or god and Avatara for the ignorant mass. The one who is in the path of wisdom must observe everything on the soulcentric view point then only they will be able to realize ‘what is truth’ and ‘what is untruth.   

Adyathmic Discussion -379

Trev Light Bown :- Every word requires at least basic workings of mind. But also those you quote from had been born "self realized" then died.

Or maybe it was the point of "self realization" that brought about their death as "I" thought.
Anything that is real will have a counterfeit reflection and so it is with Guru and spiritual teachers.

The Gnani is "being" walking talking and doing without "I" thought doership. He sees the dream and takes his destined part without "I" as a distraction, nor does he become involved in the dream. Non attached.

They take no pride in compliment nor grief at being ignored.
They neither rebuke or welcome followers but shine out the truth depending on how ripe is the student understanding.

There is no rule as to who might be Gnani,
Only the "I" is vacant allowing formless witness to see.

SK:- Dearest Trev, Man and his experience of the world are product of ignorance. If there is no ignorance then there is no man and his experience of the world.  The ignorance is present in the form of ‘I’. ‘I’ is not limited to the form alone. The ‘I’ is present only when the form, time and space are present. The ‘I’ is absent when form, time and space are absent.  Deeper self-search revels the fact that the ‘I’ itself is an illusion.  

Thus it is no point in inquiring ‘WHO AM ‘I’?

WHO AM ‘I’?  ‘WHAT AM ‘I’ inquiry limited to form. It helps the expose the unreality of the ego thus later stages the seekers will find it inadequate and useless to reach the ultimate end of understanding.  

Only sincere and serious seeker will be able to acquire Self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana others who are sentimentally involved with the gurus, yogis will remain ignorant hallucinating about the promised bliss or enlightenment.  What is the use of getting enlightenment on the false self (ego or waking entity) within the unreal world (waking)?  The seeker must realize the fact that, the self is not the waking entity but the self beyond form, time and space. The form, time and space are impermanent are impermanent and in reality the form, time and space are one in essence.   Without knowing ‘I’ is false he will not be able to realize the form, time and space is false. Without knowing the form, time and space is false he will not be able realize the experience of birth, life and death is false.  Without realizing experience of birth, life and death is false it is impossible to realize the universe is false (illusion).  Without realizing the world is an illusion it is impossible to acquire Self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana.  

Thus perfect understanding and assimilation is necessary in order to acquire Self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana.  All accumulated knowledge accumulated through different teacher and teaching theories path and practices has to mentally burnt and start a fresh if one wants truth nothing but truth. Serious and serious seekers are very few and they will get inner direction and able to reach ultimate end of understanding and realization. 

Majority of the seeker are skin deep. They are happy with the person who emotionally satisfies their feeling.   The truth pursuit is serious business. The urge to know the truth cannot be imposed on others.  It has to sprout within. One need not become holy Shepard because the holy Shepard is within in to guide every seeker. If one is aiming to be a master, Guru or teacher, he will never reach his destination. One has to share his knowledge with the fellow seeker not to make them his followers but only direct them if they are interested to travel beyond form, time and space.

It is foolish to impose our idea on others because everyone is not in same level of understanding.  Every one's inner work is on. When they are ripe enough they will understand, assimilate and realize on their own.  If they are ready and sharp enough they will grasp it instantly and they will reach their destination with lesser time and effort. Thus preaching, teaching is not wisdom, but by very careful reasoning, the seeker has to determine the nature of reality. Thinking in right direction alone helps seeker determining the nature of reality.

The people‘s approach is more practical, and they are stuck with the reality of the world, they take it as real.  If they take the world as reality it means they have accepted the birth, life, death, which takes place in the unreal world as reality. If they accept the experience of birth, life, death and the world as reality, it means they have accepted the form, time and space as reality. If the form, time and space is accepted as reality then duality will prevail as reality. If duality prevails as reality then it is impossible to understand, assimilate and realize the Nondualistic or Advaitic truth.  

When Sage Sri, Sankara says the world is an illusion, it includes birth, life and death, which happens within the world.  Thus the seekers main aim is to mentally trace the formless substance of the illusion, which is also the witness of the illusion. The formless substance and witness of the illusion (world) is the Atman, and this Atman itself is Brahman.

The people who are stuck to some teaching or teacher are no yet ready to acquire self-knowledge. As their spiritual maturity grows they become aware the teacher and his teaching are inadequate and useless to quench his spiritual thirst thus they start their journey independently.   

A Gnani silently works to clear the ignorance through wisdom he knows the arrows of wisdom enter to the core of the existence and the inner process will go on silently.    

The path of wisdom attracts only those who are in search of truth and they appreciate it greatly.   The ignorant are not spiritually matured the receive self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana.

The ‘I’ will not die but its unreal nature is exposed. It is foolish to venture to kill the ‘I’. A spiritual teacher believes in his teaching which he inherited from his guru thus he never investigates the validity of his gurus teaching.

The dream become unreal when waking takes place. The waking becomes unreal when wisdom dawns. The wisdom dawns when the waking entity (you) realizes it itself not the self but the self is that which witnesses the coming and going of the three states (I).    Thus ‘I’ is an object to the formless subject, which is ‘I’-Less(soul). 

 A Gnani is fully aware of the fact that, the subject (soul or spirit) and object (mind or matter) are one in essence.  Thus the Gnani being in this unreal world he is not of this world because he is fully aware of the fact that, the form time and space are made of single stuff. That single stuff is consciousness (soul). A Gnani sees his experience of the form, time and space as consciousness. Therefore a Gnani never sees a second thing other than the consciousness eventhough he is in the midst of duality.  If Gnani sees unity in diversity than there is no ‘I’ it has merged in its ‘I’-less substance.