Adyathmic Discussion - 395 (dream)

Trev Light Bown :- You keep saying the dream state is same as real everyday existence. Anyone who has had a dream knows it is not same as waking state. The physical dream is always the same. Dream state is never same. Sleeping dream can be seen as instant materialisation of mind.

   

SK:- As per my conviction:-   

 How does one see various objects, scenes and persons during dreams? If the dream is experienced without the physical body, then what is it that experiences the dream? Therefore, there must be a formless witness of the dream world. This formless witness is the same witness that is witnesses this Waking experience also. Therefore the Waking experience and dream both are witnessed by one and only formless witness of which the seeker is not aware of.

 Since he considers the waking entity(ego)   as the self or witness and views and judges the world-view on the standpoint of the  waking entity or ego ,which is the false self, within the false experience(waking) . The formless witness can exist with or without the waking or dream. But the waking  or  dream ceases to exist, without the formless witness.

The gross Waking experience is merged into the mental experience in the sense that, when it is analyzed, it is found to exist inseparably in and as the mind alone. All "spiritual" planes are really mental: those who regard them as different or higher are deceiving themselves.

The dream becomes unreal when the waking takes place; similarly the waking becomes unreal when the wisdom dawns. Therefore everything has to be grasped mentally, not argued on the intellectual point of view, which is limited to the false physical entity within the false experience.

The unreal is created out of real, and when one views and judges on the standpoint unreal (ego) then there is duality. When one is able to view and judge on the standpoint of real (Atman or soul, the innermost self ) then there is only non -duality. Therefore, when the wisdom dawns then there is neither duality, nor non-duality, only reality.

All these confusions will go on, until man thinks, he is an individual and apart from the world, and the world existed prior to him and he is born in it afterwards. Therefore, it is necessary to know the fact  that,  the real  self is not ego, but the real self is the soul.

If the soul is the real self then the seeker has to  stop viewing and judging the world-view on the standpoint of the physical self (ego) and one has to view and judge on the formless soul, the innermost self  to realize the fact that, the world along with man is an illusion.

The formless substance from which the illusion is created is the soul, which is present in the form of consciousness . This Atman (soul)  is Brahman or ultimate reality. Thus no second thing exists  other than the soul or consciousness.  Thus there is no experience nor the experiencer in non-dual reality but only self-awareness.

The ‘I’ is absent when form, time and space are absent.***

The world in which you exist is the   product of ignorance. If there is no ignorance then the worlds in which you exist cease to exist.  The ignorance is present in the form of ‘I’. ‘I’ is not limited to the form alone because the ‘I’ is present only when the form, time, and space are present.

 The ‘I’ is absent when form, time and space are absent.  Deeper Self-search reveals the fact that the ‘I’ itself is an illusion.

There is no point in inquiring ‘WHO AM ‘I’? WHO AM ‘I’?  ‘WHAT AM ‘I’?,   inquiry limited to form. It helps the expose the unreality of the ego. In later stages WHO AM ‘I’?  ‘WHAT AM ‘I’?, inquiry the seekers will find it inadequate and useless to reach the ultimate end of understanding.  

Only sincere and serious seeker will be able to acquire Self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana.  Those who are sentimentally involved with the Gurus, yogis will remain ignorant hallucinating about the promised bliss or enlightenment.  

What is the use of getting enlightenment on the false Self (ego or waking entity) within the unreal world (waking)?  It will be false enlightenment.

Self-realization is to realize the ‘Self’ is not you but the ‘Self’ is the formless Soul, which is present in the form of the consciousness.  The ‘Self’ is not within the body because it pervades everything and everywhere in all the three states.   Thus limiting the Self to the physical body within the illusory world will not yield the truth of the whole.

 Thus, it is necessary to realize the ‘Self’ is not the ‘I’ and ‘I’ is not the Soul, the innermost Self.  The Soul, the innermost Self is the witness of the ‘I’ which appear and disappears.

Bhagavad Gita: ~ The permanent is always there, only the transient ‘I’ comes and goes. (2.18)

The ‘I’ hides the truth of the whole. .

The earliest ancient sages used the word ‘I’ to the witness of the three states not to the ego as moderns use it and think the ‘I’ without the body is the Self. The seeker has to understand the fact that the fact that ‘I’ is not the Self, but the witness of the ‘I’ is the true Self, which is eternal. 

That is why Ashtavakra Gita 16:10:~ If you desire liberation, but you still say "I," If you feel the ‘Self’ is the ‘I’, You are not a wise man or a seeker. You are simply a man who suffers.

Adyathmic Discussion - 394 (logic and reason)

FORMLESS PATH: How can the ‘I’ know the truth, when ‘I’ itself is false?

sunthosh-formlesspath.blogspot.com

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  Ed Muzika I can know the truth because the I sense and I thought are not the knower. The knower of all things conscious is beyond consciousness.

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  Santthosh Kumaar The knower and known are one in essence. That essence is the soul,which is present in the form of consciousness (spirit). Thus consciousness alone is all else(universe) is mere an illusion.

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  Ed Muzika Well, that is one theory. Nisargadatta and others hold that the Witness, ParaBrahman is ontologically prior to Consciousness. Ramana says Consciousness is all. Both say the universe is illusion. In the end, what does either theory mean in terms of pragmatics, such as how much we pay for a gallow on gas, or even how to practice self-inquiry?

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  Santthosh Kumaar People speak of getting rid of conditioning or samskara but they themselves are unaware of the fact that, the universe in which they exist is product of the inborn samskara or conditioning. The ignorance is cause of the inborn samskara or conditioning...See More

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  Ed Muzika I have no idea of what you just said. It is a theory, based, I am sure, on someone's experience which when talked about becomes knowledge passed from person to person as teachings.
  
  However, nothing in my experience fits this knowledge.
  
  My experiences and conclusions drawn from those experiences are closer to those of Nisargadatta, who concludes even Consciousness is illusory.

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  Santthosh Kumaar I respect your views and wisdom. Holding any teaching or teacher as a yardstick causes all the confusion.
  
  As per my conviction:-The self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana is not based on any theory because the seeker has to reject what is not t...See More

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  Ed Muzika I am sorry, I do not follow either the logic of your argument, nor many of the terms you use without definition. I don't know what inborn conditioning means, waking dream means, what 'I' or 'I am" means to you, duality, grip of duality, or experiencing "illusory duality as reality."
  
  These terms are entirely too abstract and removed from my experience to be meaningful.

  7 hours ago · Like
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  Santthosh Kumaar I respect your opinion and wisdom.
  
  As per my conviction:-
  
  There is neither logic nor argument is needed to realize the ultimate truth beyond form, time and space. The logic and argument are useful in egocentric discussion. When the self is not th...See More

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  Santthosh Kumaar Without knowing what truth is, how can one know what is untruth? Mere bookish knowledge or knowledge based on speculation and assumption is mere playing with the words not non-dual wisdom. Intellectuality is based on the false self thus it will not y...See More

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  Santthosh Kumaar Logic is misunderstood. People cannot distinguish between reasoning and intellect as a Gnani does. Reason applied only to waking experience (duality) is called logic, intellect. Vedanta learns not only such reason but also reasoning based on waking, dream and sleep . To say rise above logic, is generally confused with saying "Rise above Reason." It is wrong to give up reason. Life does not consist only of waking state. We must take all three states into account.
  If one sticks to the old formal logic, he cannot get at truth. People seeing this insufficiency of logic, therefore wrongly say "Give up logic and go to intuition." Their error is “What is it that told them that logic was not enough?” It was Reason itself; not intuition. Thus there is confusion between logic and reason.
  
  Reasoning is interpretable in two ways. The defective interpretation is to apply it only to waking state. The correct interpretation is to apply it to the three states. The latter leads to final settlement of the problems because it takes all data into consideration.

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Adyathmic Discussion -390 ( The knower of Brahman wears no signs)

Trev Light Bown: - The Universe is only illusion from point of view of the observer formless witness. Taking part in everyday activities is no longer such a serious activity. But the part must be played out.

There is realisation that the person you thought is no longer the doer. Action just happens. Can you say more on the doer?

SK:- A Gnani being in the illusion he is not of the illusion. Doer and doing and the world are all within the duality.  With perfect equanimity, even in practical life within the practical world a Gnani attends all his worldly duties like any other commoner. He may have sorrows but he is in perfect equanimity because he is aware of the fact that, the physical awareness is mere illusion created out of the soul, the innermost self. He is fully aware of the fact that the physical life started within the illusion and ends within the illusion. In self-awareness the soul, the innermost self is free from experiencing the form, time and space in the midst of the duality.

Where is the doer, where is the doing where is the world when the soul is in awareness of its own formless nondual nature. The doership, doing and the world belongs to the illusion. Whatever is happening within the illusion will go on happening the soul the witness of the illusion is unaffected by the happening within the illusion because it is ever formless. All the dualistic knowledge is limited to the illusion.

Where is the past? Where is the present and where is the future? Where is the form? Where is the time? Where is space? For the soul, the innermost self, which is ever formless?  

A Gnani acts and reacts as a commoner in the practical life within the practical world with a perfect equanimity of both in illusion or reality.   

On page 482: On Gnani: "The knower of Brahman wears no signs. Gives up the insignia of a monk's life…his signs are not manifest, nor his behavior."  When the knower of Brahman wears no signs it means he remains as commoner does not identify himself as wise man and others are less wise.  

The man who claims to be a Gnani but must advertise it by wearing a monks  robe, or sitting in a cave, or remains nude, is thereby proving that he is thinking of the body, is attached to it; he is not a  true Gnani. The latter has no need to distinguish himself when he knows all is One. All Those distinctions mentioned are for religious guru or yogi.

The Gnani will feel that millions are suffering in the world, but simultaneously he will also know that they identify themselves wrongly with their finite selves. He will understand his limitation through being in the realm of form, time and space and knows that he cannot help them all, so he will do whatever it is possible for him to do. He will make use of his body to whatever extent it is possible in helping others, but admittedly he can relieve only a tiny fraction of humanity.

Both Gnani and ignorant see the multiplicity, but Gnani does not take the differences which he sees as being real. That is the difference between them. The Gnani sees the unity behind the differences and considers the welfare of all others as his own.  A true Gnani can never renounce anything. It is impossible. He has only renounced the idea of a separation.

Gnanis are one in millions for they have ignored the opinions of whole peoples in their independent search of truth, and questioned all beliefs, all scriptures, all authorities, until they could be proved to be true.

 Even the arguments that religions have been followed since time immemorial makes no difference to them, because if people have believed a false thing over thousands of years, the length of time does not prove it true.

The Gnani’s position is that if enjoyment comes, he accepts it; if it does not, he keeps quiet. Even when he is taking pleasures, however, he is not deluded by them and he regards them as a game of life since he knows their unreality: he does not take them seriously. Clouds do not affect the sky, although they appear to; so the pleasures do not change the Gnani.

The Gnani will follow whatever occupation he wishes according to circumstances. There are no prohibitions for him. He may be a barber or a billionaire.