Adyathmic Discussion -399

Trev Light Bown:-

What is the meaning of Akram Vignan. ?

Dear Trev,

There are so many paths prescribed by many sages of truth in India with or without rituals but many takes us nearer to the truth but they fail to reach the ultimate end of understanding. Many sages of truth have introduced many paths and commented on the enlightened people. It has always been so in India, because much dust gathers as time passes. Now, the scriptures were translated and interpreted in a totally different world. Those sages have disappeared, their wisdom also has disappeared, and that world no more exists.

I don’t want to criticize any saint or gurus but I only want to say there is no need to follow any one or follow any path or take initiation from any guru. What is needed is perfect understanding of what is what leads one to non-dualistic or Advaitic self-awareness.

 If any promises extraordinary path of liberation of instant Self-realization is not a Gnani. And such path is egocentric path not soulcentric path. A Gnani will never promise such instant realization but he says it is not the man who has to get realized because it is the soul, which is in ignorance of its own true nature, has to wake up to reality. It is the soul; the innermost self- has to wake up to reality from the illusion.    If the soul wakes up than it is called self –realization.  A Gnani has no power to transmit Gnana to anyone because Gnana has to arise from within.  A Gnani only guides the seeker to the inner path which is formless, spaceless and timeless.

A Gnani will never pose himself as a Gnani. For a Gnani his body and his world cease to exist as reality because for Gnani his body is not the body, his ego is not ego his experience of the world is not the world but the body ego and the world are mere mirage created out of consciousness.   

Man and his world are product of ignorance. Ignorance is cause of experiencing the illusion as reality. When ignorance vanishes through wisdom then there is nothing exists other than consciousness.    such enlightenment is not true enlightenment.

First Mundaka - Chapter 2 (8) - Fools, dwelling in darkness, but wise in their own conceit and puffed up with vain scholarship, wander about, being afflicted by many ills, like blind men led by the blind.

Firstly the seeker has to overcome many obstacles, which is blocking his realization because he is gathered so much of dross and he is confused which pat is true path. Every guru declares and promises instant enlightenment but wisdom cannot be bought in spiritual super market.  

There are millions in search of truth but one in million will be able to grasp it.  I am just posting what revels from the inner core. I just share with likeminded fellow seekers.   I am just highlighting the obstacle in the pursuit of truth.  Self-Knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana is not based on any teaching or teacher. Pursuit of truth is pursuit of verification not pursuit of argument.   Intellectual discussion is great hindrance in pursuit of truth.

When one is unable to quench his spiritual thirst from his guru or teaching he has to look elsewhere to clear the cobwebs of his understanding and to move forward in his spiritual quest.

There are millions in search of truth but one in million will be able to grasp it.  I am just posting what revels from the inner core. I just share with likeminded fellow seekers.   I am just highlighting the obstacle in the pursuit of truth.  Self-Knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana is not based on any teaching or teacher. Pursuit of truth is pursuit of verification not pursuit of argument.   Discussing with Intellectual is great hindrance in pursuit of truth because intellectuality is based on individuality whereas the self is not an individual.  

All the FP and IP blogs are verified truth derived from deeper self-search. If one goes on reading all his doubts and confusion will start clearing. It takes time to receptive to Self-Knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana because it is soulcentric knowledge whereas all accumulated knowledge is egocentric.

All accumulated knowledge is of no use in path of wisdom. Without realizing “What is truth it is impossible to realize “What is untruth?” Without realizing what is truth and what is untruth it is impossible to assimilate the Self –Knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana. Thus one must know with full and firm conviction what truth is.

The wisdom consists in knowing the truth, that everything (mind or physical existence) is consciousness. Freedom (ultimate truth) is always there yet one does not know it.  But to those whose reason is turned away from physicality and who have attained the serenity of the soul or consciousness, the innermost self, are quite near to realizing the ultimate truth or Brahman. 

To think once own body and his experience of the world is an illusion is difficult matter, unless one realizes the self is not physical but it is formless soul it is difficult to have glimpse of truth.

When one realizes the fact that, the self is not physical but the formless soul, naturally the body and universe becomes illusion.

The mind (universe) is emanating from soul (consciousness) means the mind is being effect from consciousness is not different from it. Deeper analysis shows it. Analysis needs deeper thinking and reasoning. Mind is whole universe thus it has a form. But where is the form in consciousness (formless soul) because consciousness is like an ocean and mind is like wave.  The universe is same consciousness, as the ocean produces the wave, so the consciousness produces the mind (universe).

The moment one knows the mind (universe) is consciousness, and then there is no ignorance. If one knows consciousness as self then everything is consciousness, the consciousness is second to none.  The mind is consciousness but due to ignorance one mistakes it for something else. One thinks the self is within the body; but the self is without the body and the world.

It is no use of arguing with someone who has faith in his belief system because for him there can be no possible refutation of what he believes, so rational argument is entirely useless. He clings to his belief so strongly that he makes no distinction between the truth and his belief. One has to know the fact that god cannot exist without his existence. The truth does not depend on gods’ existence but it entirely depends on man’s existence.   Thus it is foolish to venture in knowing the truth of gods existence without verifying the facts about his own existence. 

It is difficult for tradition-bound people to accept anything as truth other than what they inherited from then in born and inherited conditioning and parental grooming and their accumulated knowledge. Only intense urge to know the truth and courage to accept the truth after verification with better understanding one will be able to drop all his accumulated dross, which is the main obstacle in self-realization. 

Adyathmic Discussion -398 (Karma theory is mere religious and yogic fable)

Trev Light Bown: - This is how my understanding sees it.

Karma is whatever is. Yes it is the play of duality forces as birth, living in world universe and death of body mind that is identity "I" thought.

So. Even Gnani after true self-realisation must be a player of these duality forces.
Look at all the Sages, many including Ramana, Krishnamurti, Nasagadatta, all died of cancer type illness if I am not mistaken. So this to me is evidence that forces of karma will play out even for Enlightened Gnani.

So yes Karma is illusion at soul witness, but to take part on Earth as human being, means living with "what is" or karma effects of past.

-

Dearest Trev Light Bown,

As per my conviction:-

When the self is not the form but self is formless then whose karma. The one which is born lives and dies is not the self then the question of karma does not arise.  Waking entity (you) is the false self within the false experience (waking). Thus whatever action and inaction, past, present and future belong to the waking experience, which is falsehood.

What happens to the dream entity which did good karma in the dream world and it died and reincarnated in the next life and suffered but when waking takes place the dream becomes unreal.

The waking becomes unreal when waking entity (you) realizes the fact that it itself (you) are not the self but the self is the formless soul, which witnesses the coming and going of the three states in succession.  

Thus neither karma of waking entity nor the karma of dream entity has meaning because the self is neither the waking entity nor the self is dream entity but the self is formless soul.  

You are not the self because you are the birth entity; you are bound by form, time and space whereas the self is Birthless then how the karma theory has any meaning when the karma theory based on the false self (you) and false experience (world).  The karma theory is a religious fable meant for the people who are fully immersed in the practical life and practical world believing the experience of the birth, life, death and the world as reality.   If self is birthless then what values the karma theory will have because it is based on birth, life, death and rebirth.

Thus,  as per my conviction, the Karma theory is mere religious and yogic fable.

Yes, Ramana, J. Krishnamurti, Nisargadattta, all died of cancer type illness. It does not make any difference if they died of cancer or not of cancer or any illness. Even Lord Krishna died of a painful death.  The death is certain cause of death is irreverent to a Gnani. When the self is birthless then it is deathless A Gnani is unconcerned to the death because he is fully aware of that the illusion is only a passing show. The last words of Sage Ramana on the death bed: - he says I am not going anywhere. He did not mean that his physical form, which was bound by birth, life and death   but the birthless self, which is ever formless.  Thus the karma theory is nothing to do with birthless self. Thus people’s painful death cannot be taken as evidence because self is ever deathless because it birthless because it is formless.

The karmic account is never ending because one has to be born again and again to reap his good or bad karma carried forward one life to the next.   To end his karmic account he has to be born as a Muslim in his next birth because the Islam does not believe in karma theory. 

   

As per Sage Sri, Sankara:-

The path of religion, theory of karma, the path of yoga and the path of wisdom were intended for different classes of people. The wisdom is for the advanced seekers of truth. It deals with the nature of the ultimate Truth and Reality. It is meant for superior aspirants who have an inner urge to know the truth and it is not for those who are immersed in earthly desires.

Sri Sankara  says in Aparokshanubhuti:- 

   88. When the whole universe, movable and immovable, is known to be Atman, and thus the existence of everything else is negated, where is then any room to say that the body is Atman?

   89. O enlightened one, pass your time always contemplating on Atman while you are experiencing all the results of Prarabdha; for it ill becomes you to feel distressed.

   90. The theory one hears of from the scripture, that Prarabdha does not lose its hold upon one even after the origination of the knowledge of Atman, is now being refuted.

   91. After the origination of the knowledge of Reality, Prarabdha verily ceases to exist, inasmuch as the body and the like become non-existent; just as a dream does not exist in waking.

   92. That Karma which is done in a previous life is known as Prarabdha (which produces the present life). But such Karma cannot take the place of Prarabdha (for a man of knowledge), as he has no other birth (being free from ego).

   93. Just as the body in a dream is superimposed (and therefore illusory), so is also this body. How could there be any birth of the superimposed (body), and in the absence of birth (of the body) where is the room for that (i.e., Prarabdha) at all ?

   94. The Vedanta texts declare ignorance to be verily the material (cause) of the phenomenal world just as earth is of a jar. That (ignorance) being destroyed, where can the universe subsist ?

   95. Just as a person out of confusion perceives only the snake leaving aside the rope, so does an ignorant person see only the phenomenal world without knowing the reality?

   96. The real nature of the rope being known, the appearance of the snake no longer persists; so the substratum being known, the phenomenal world disappears completely.

   97. The body also being within the phenomenal world (and therefore unreal), how could Prarabdha exist ? It is, therefore, for the understanding of the ignorant alone that the Shruti speaks of Prarabdha.

   98. “And all the actions of a man perish when he realizes that (Atman) which is both the higher and the lower”. Here the clear use of the plural by the Shruti is to negate Prarabdha as well.

   99. If the ignorant still arbitrarily maintain this, they will not only involve themselves into two absurdities but will also run the risk of forgoing the Vedantic conclusion. So one should accept those Shrutis alone from which proceeds true knowledge.

The above proves that the karma is reality only on the base of the false self, where one thinks body and the universes as reality. When one becomes aware of the fact that, the true self is formless soul, then the karma becomes part and parcel of illusion.   My point is that, if one accepts the karma theory as reality, he will never be able to come out of the ignorance. And ignorance makes him believe the cycle of birth, life and death as a reality.  Thus the freedom which one is seeking will remain a distant dream. For the one who accepts the birth life, death and the world as reality, Self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana is impossible.

Gnana is knowledge of the single stuff***

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad: - As an eagle, weary after soaring in the sky, folds its wings and flies down to rest in its nest, so does the shining Self enter the state of dreamless sleep, where one is freed from all desires. 

Kena Upanishad (5) Chapter II :~ If a man knows Atman here, he then attains the true goal of life. If he does not know It here, a great destruction awaits him. Having realized the Self in every being, the wise relinquish the world and become immortal.

What is Gnana? Gnana is knowledge of the single stuff. The stuff is consciousness. The consciousness is only one. One becomes many and many become One.  That is the soul (self) becomes mind (universe) and the universe becomes the soul.  The universe is present in the form of matter and the soul is present in the form of spirit.  The spirit becomes matter and matter becomes spirit.  The matter and spirit are one in essence.  The matter is unreal and impermanent. The spirit (consciousness) is real and permanent.   There is no second thing other than the spirit.  The spirit is ultimate truth or Brahman or God or Christ or God.  The spirit is the innermost self.  Therefore, your innermost self is Brahman or God.

To know this simple truth it is very difficult because people are intoxicated in the prison of duality. This intoxicating stuff is ‘I’. ‘I’ intoxicate 5000 times more than LSD or any other intoxicating stuff.   Thus, the seeker of truth has to get rid of the intoxication of this ‘I’ which causes ignorance. Till ignorance is there everyone is intoxicated and experiences the duality as reality. Thus, self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana is necessary   to realize the duality (universe) is created out of non-dual stuff, which is consciousness.   

Perfect understanding of what is what leads to Non-dualistic or Advaitic bliss or self-awareness in the midst of duality. Thus, there is a need to follow the formless path ,which is your inner path to realize the ultimate truth or Brahman or God or Christ here(in this very life)  and now(not in the next world or next life). 

Most thinkers’ point of view of non-duality is based on the physical self or ego or the  waking entity. The thinker and the thoughts are part of the illusory duality. The individual experiences are happening within the waking experience. The waking experience itself is a mirage created out of the formless consciousness, which is the innermost self. The ego/physical self and the world are part of the mirage.  The ego is the false self within the false experience. Thus, the individual experiences within the waking experiences are mere mirage. Thus, the experience of the  birth, life and death are part of the mirage. 

If someone kills someone within the waking experience is as good as killing is taking place in the dream.  The killer and killing and the world are one in essence.  Until the ignorance is there the waking experience prevails as reality.   Only when wisdom dawns the waking experience becomes unreal. The man who believes himself as a person born in this world and the world existed prior to him will not be able to assimilate self-knowledge because he is unaware of the fact that, he is part and parcel of the waking experience, which is illusory reality.  Thus, his understanding is limited to form, time and space. The form, time and space are one in essence.

The formless witness of the three states is not the physical self or waking entity or ego, but the formless soul, which is in the form of consciousness. On the standpoint of the soul as self, the three states are unreal.  Thus, if someone kills someone, is a reality, within the waking experience. But waking experience itself is unreal.   The unreal appears and disappears as three states. The witness of the three states is unaffected and apart.  To realize this truth it takes quiet a lot of mental effort.  A proper and perfect understanding in this regard leads the seeking mind, towards non dual reality.  The one who is able to grasp this truth is a Gnani.  

Adyathmic Discussion:- 397 (What is Gnana?)

Trev Light Bown:- You say you see potential Gnani in myself, but do I not argue with everything you say. Ok I now accept I resonate with most of it.

I now realize that a lot is lost in translation. But also the mental box is always constructed of I know the truth for certain and everyone else is wrong.

In non-Duality. "This is all there is!"

Nothing more than Gnani.

SK: ~

What is Gnana? 

Gnana is knowledge of the single stuff. The stuff is consciousness. The consciousness is only one. One becomes many and many become One.  That is the soul (self) becomes mind (universe) and the universe becomes the soul.  The universe is present in the form of matter and the soul is present in the form of spirit.  The spirit becomes matter and matter becomes spirit.  The matter and spirit are one in essence.  The matter is unreal and impermanent. The spirit (consciousness) is real and permanent.   There is no second thing other than the spirit.  The spirit is ultimate truth or Brahman or God or Christ or God.  The spirit is the innermost self.  Therefore, your innermost self is Brahman or Christ or God.

To know this simple truth it is very difficult because people are intoxicated in the prison of duality. This intoxicating stuff is ‘I’. ‘I’ intoxicate 5000 times more than LSD or any other intoxicating stuff.   Thus, the seeker of truth has to get rid of the intoxication of this ‘I’ which causes ignorance. Till ignorance is there everyone is intoxicated and experiences the duality as reality. Thus, self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana is necessary   to realize the duality (universe) is created out of nondual stuff, which is  the consciousness.   

Perfect understanding of what is what leads to Nondualistc or Advaitic bliss or self-awareness in the midst of duality. thus there is a need to follow the formless path ,which is your inner path to realize ultimate truth or Brahman or God or Christ here(in this very life)  and now(not in the next world or next life).

Nonduality or Advaita cannot be spoken…it means not two. There cannot be any division. In Advaita…hence the moment it is spoken as any other subject the whole point is lost.

The SELF  is realized when the waking entity realizes it itself is not the self but the self is the formless soul . Thus it is the soul , that has to   awake itself from its ignorance. 

The soul, the innermost self  is unborn, dreamless, sleepless, and motionless; and is beyond duality. It is cognition at its purest. Thus self-realzation is God Realization. 

The Formless Soul is is Brahman or God.  This is the core of nondualistc or Advaitic wisdom. 

Every religious belief contradicts other beliefs***

People believe in old myths propagated by their religion. Every religion has propagated its own myth. Every religious belief contradicts other beliefs. It is the mere blind belief accepted as truth without verification and evidence.  This causes division. Modern science has exposed many Religious dogmas as myth. All these dogmas were introduced in the primitive era   before people had the benefit of modern science. Science attempts to objectively discover how life works, and religion makes one blindly believe and cast his  burden on the blind belief without verification,  to live in peace and harmony in worldly life.

The Seekers main aim is to investigate both dual and nondual experiences to find and define the underlying truth in everything, thereby realizing what the ultimate truth is.  Because of so many beliefs propagated by a belief system, people think seekers of truth are   atheists because they do not accept the belief blindly. The Seekers of truth believe the religionist and atheists both are believers because religionist believes in the belief of god and atheists believe in belief in no God. ~ Santthosh Kumaar

Sage Sri Ramana Maharishi: - Correcting oneself is correcting the whole world. The sun is simply bright. It does not correct anyone. Because it shines the whole world is full of light . Transforming yourself is the means of giving light to the whole world. (TOI-P-125-912) 

In pursuit of truth discussion of unimportant subject matter is a great hindrance. Personal attacks have to be avoided to maintain the sanctity of the forum. 

The path of truth is a path of verification. Nothing has to be accepted as truth without verification. Agreeing to disagree causes unnecessary friction, everyone has a point of view and everyone must respect others views wisdom just to maintain harmony irregardless of whether the point made was acceptable or not.

One cannot live without the physical world; it is the basis of one’s life, but the physical world one lives,  is within the waking experience.   The same way the dream world and dream entity exists within the dream.  The dream entity and dream world are reality within the dream. Similarly, the waking entity and the waking world are reality within the waking experience.  The dream becomes unreal when waking takes place and waking remains a reality till the ignorance is there. The ignorance will prevails till the waking entity remains unaware of the existence of the formless witness.  Thus, one has to trace the formless witness of the three states in order to realize the self is neither the waking entity nor the self is dream entity but the self is that which witnesses the coming and going of the three states without the physical apparatus.   

So it is the starting point of his pursuit of truth. Proof, not imaginations, must be the seekers’ material. 

First seeker   must inquire into the nature of the physical body i.e. matter. Second he must inquire into the nature of the mind. 

Observe at everything in nature because in everything there is consciousness. One should not avoid them, do not shut his himself to Nature, and he should not shut himself away from the world which is as much consciousness, as anything else because the consciousness is the cause of  the three states and it itself is uncaused. 

To say this world is an illusion without first examining them and inquiring into them thoroughly is to delude yourself. The world is a reality within the waking experience. Same way as the dream world was reality within the dream.   

The person, who stamped their foot on the ground to refute to show the world, is real, ignore that in the dream he would do exactly the same--stamp his dream foot on the ground and assert it to be real. 

The dream becomes unreal when waking takes place. Similarly, the waking becomes unreal when wisdom dawns. Wisdom dawns, when the waking entity indulges itself in deeper self-search and realizes the fact that, it itself is not the self. But the self is the formless witness of the three states.  The formless witness of the three states is the soul or consciousness, the innermost self.   Formless Consciousness also is the substance of the three states. Thus, formless witness and substance of the three states are one in essence. Thus, there is no second thing exists other than consciousness.   Thus, the  formless consciousness (soul) is ultimate truth or Brahman.  Thus on the standpoint of the soul, the innermost self, all the three states are mere illusion. Whatever prevails without the illusion is ultimate reality or Brahman.