Adyathmic Discussion -331

Without knowing the nature of the universe, it is impossible to know the truth.

Without knowing the nature of the universe(mind), it is impossible to know the truth. It is of no use of trying to find the truth before one understands the nature of the universe. The world which confronts one is also consciousness itself therefore the world in which man exists is a mere mirage created out of consciousness, which is the innermost self. 

If one does not make his induction from facts from the world before him, the world of the five senses, he is only drawing on his imaginations. Then he says “The ‘Self’ is like this, or like that." but it will be only his imagination within the waking experience, which is mere illusion from ultimate standpoint. .

First seeker must inquire into the nature of the physical body i.e. Matter. Second he must inquire into the nature of the mind.

Most of the dualistic sages approach was more practical, and they stuck with the reality of the world, they took it as real. Whereas Sri, Sankara says: one must first know what is before him. If he cannot know that, what else can he know or understand? If he gives up the external world in his inquiry, he cannot get the whole truth.
 

Sage Sri, Sankara says- VC- 63. Without causing the objective universe to vanish and without knowing the truth of the Self, how is one to achieve Liberation by the mere utterance of the word Brahman? — It would result merely in an effort of speech..

By studying various scriptures one cannot be established in the true self, which is consciousness [soul] unless he drops all accumulated knowledge. Scriptures and yoga are preliminary steps but they are not the means to acquire self-knowledge or non-dual truth.

Getting certainty and irrefutable proof of our true existence without dogmatic assertion and assumption and speculation is the attitude of true seeker. One has to know the self in the truth.

All the study of scriptures and texts and teachings has to be dropped when one becomes aware of the fact that, the self is not physical but self is the soul (consciousness). One must think of always of the soul (consciousness) the witness of the three states; rather than the three states.

One may enjoy work or practice meditation but he will still yarn of that which is beyond all imagination ,all thinking and the objects and in which all the desire are extinguished. The subconscious goal of one’s search can only be non-duality.

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• Satyam Sam Singh likes this.
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  Rs Mani Vedanta talks about Aham, i.e. the subject, idam, the objects and Eswara, the Lord, supposed to be the creator, all with the single purport of unfolding Aham Brahma Asmi!

  22 hours ago · Like · 1
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  Satyam Sam Singh When one become aware of one's own true nature, and the nature is nothing but 'The Soul Alone'; Whole existence with I (mind) along exists within 'The Soul' than there is no place for vedanta nor god. Everything is 'One Soul', there is nothing other than 'Soul'.

  10 hours ago · Unlike · 1
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  Santthosh Kumaar Sage Sri, Sankara founded his Advaita Vedanta either on reason independent of sruti or on sruti confirmed by reason." Sri, Sankara's commentary on the Mandukya Upanishad, II, 1: This [the unreality of duality] is borne out by the Srutis ... But it is possible also to show the unreality of the object world even from pure reasoning, and this second chapter is undertaken for that purpose.

  
  

  
  

  Sri, Sankara himself had often said that his philosophy was based on Sruti, or revealed scripture. This may be because Sri, Sankara addressed the ordinary man, who finds security in the idea of causality and thus in the idea of God—and Revelation is indispensable to prove the latter. He believed that those of superior intelligence, have no need of this idea of divine causality, and can therefore dispense with Sruti and arrive at the truth of Non-Dualism by pure reason. 

  
  

  Those who lack the intelligence to discriminate between formless witness [subject] and three states [object] will not be able to grasp what is real and what is unreal. Both subject and object are consciousness, not subject alone.

  
  

  The truth can never change. The nature of truth is, it can never be changed under any circumstances. It may be misrepresented. It must apply to the whole of existence, to the whole of the universe. It is in the object [three states] alone that one has all changes, as deeper analysis points out.

  8 minutes ago · Like
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  Santthosh Kumaar Why go round and round, by various tortuous paths

  
  

  
  

  When the Vedas and Upanishad declare that Consciousness or Atman is actually nothing but Brahman, then why go round and round, by various tortuous paths, like the blind led by the blind. One has to realize the fact that, the mind is in form of universe. Trace the source of mind and realize that source is consciousness. The mind rises from consciousness as waking or dream and subsides as deep sleep.

  5 minutes ago · Like
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  Santthosh Kumaar Sage Sri, Raman Maharshi said fortunate are the one who do not lose themselves in the labyrinths of philosophy. Bhagwan says: Take Vedanta, for instance: it speaks of 15 pranas the names and functions of it which the student is asked to commit memory. Will it not be sufficient if he thought only one prana does the whole work of maintaining the body? Again the antakaran is said to think, to desire, to will, to reason etc. Why all these details? Has anyone seen antakarana, or all these pranas? Do they really exist? They are conceptual divisions invented by teachers of philosophy by their excessive analysis. Where do all these concepts end? Why should confusion created and then explained away? Fortunate is the man who does not lose himself in the labyrinths of philosophy, but goes straight to the source from which they all arise. (GURU RAMANA .By S.S Cohen -vii Danger of philosophy-Page -58-59)

  
  

  
  

  The above passages further prove that: Self-Knowledge cannot be attained by study of the Vedas and intellectual understanding or by bookish knowledge. Therefore there is no use of studying the Vedas and other scriptures in order to acquire the non-dual wisdom. That is why Buddha rejected the scriptures, and even Sri, Sankara indicated that, the ultimate truth lies beyond religion, concept of god and scriptures. 

  
  

  Therefore, there is no use of taking strain to understand assimilate the conceptual divisions invented by teachers of philosophy by their excessive analysis. There are more and more doubts and confusions, if one tries to understand and assimilate the ultimate truth through scriptures. 

  
  

  Why to follow the path of doubts and confusion by losing oneself in the labyrinths of philosophy, when one can realize the ultimate truth without them. By mentally tracing the source of the mind from where it rises and subsides one becomes aware of the fallacy of the mind, which rises as waking or dream and subsides as deep sleep. The mind raises form consciousness and subsides as consciousness. Therefore, there is a need for perfect understanding assimilation of non-dual truth.

Santthosh Kumaar People say aham Brahmasmi -- I am God, I am Brahman. But when Brahman is, how can "I" remain? Only Brahman remains, not I. But there is no other way to express it.

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Adyathmic Discussion --330 ( 'I' itself is an illusion)

You are not the self. Till you hold ‘I’ as self you are holding false as reality. One has to get rid of the ‘I’. 'I' is the physical shackle. 

· ‘I’ is ignorance.

· ‘I’ is illusion.

· ‘I’ is duality

· ‘I’ is universe.

· ‘I’ is waking.

· ‘I’ is dream.

· ‘I’ is mind

What is ‘I’? The ‘I’ disappears in deep sleep, so what is the use of being attached to it? It is illusory.

There is really no ‘I’. It dies in deep sleep. But the notion of its unreality will gradually grasp by the receptive seekers. Individuality is illusory.--FORMLESS PATH

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• Satyam Sam Singh, Bini P Varikattumalil and Suddha Chetan like this.
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  Tarun Patwal "I" is harmless in its practical sense........notion "I' is this that causes trouble

  22 hours ago · Like
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  Santthosh Kumaar The 'I' itself is an  illusion. Illusion is the cause of duality. duality is the illusory prison.The ‘I’, body, ego and the world appear together and disappear together. The reason disappears when ‘I’ disappears. Since everyone thinks ‘I’ as self all these doubts and confusion arises. Whenever there is ‘I’ there is division, conflict, which is disorder. 

  
  

  
  

  
  

  When ‘I’ disappears then there is universal order, which alone is real. The formless soul is Witness of the three states. One cannot say ‘I’ alone is illusion because ‘I’ is not the body but 'I' is mind. The mind is present in the form of universe. The universe appears as waking or dream (duality) and disappears as deep sleep (non-duality). Thus one has to learn to view and judge the three states on the standpoint of the formless witness, in order to know “what is truth” to know “what is untruth(illusion)”. 

  
  

  When ‘I’ is there all diversities is experienced. Absent of ‘I’ there is no experience of diversity. Thus there is a need to understand the fact that, ‘I’ or mind is not limited to the waking entity alone because 'I' is the whole universe. All the confusion will be cleared when one stops his verification on the base false self (waking entity or ego) and learns to reason on the base on the formless self (soul).

People make God and their master or Guru as the center of their existence. They are hallucinating about their idea of God***

People make God and their master or Guru as the center of their existence.  They are hallucinating about their idea of God and Master or Guru. Such people will never be able to overcome the ignorance. The path wisdom is not suitable for those who believe in their religion their idea of God   and faith in the physical Guru or Master. Such people must tread their own chosen path, which gives them satisfaction. By mixing up religion and religious idea of God and trying to impose their religious idea of God will make them permanent prisoners of ignorance.

One should not hold a god as the center of the existence without knowing ‘what God really is.

Lord Krishna Says: ~ “Those who know me in truth.". The last two words (tattvataha) are usually ignored by pundits, but they make all the difference between the ordinary concept of God and the truth about God. (Ch~V) .

Bhagavad Gita: ~ Brahmano hi pratisthaham Brahman (God) is considered the all-pervading consciousness (Spirit) which is the basis of all the animate and inanimate entities and material (Gita 14.27)

The religious Gods exist within the domain of the dualistic illusion (waking). The religious Gods exist separately from the world in which man exists. Separation implies duality.   The duality always implies contradiction.  From the nondualistic perspective the duality is mere an illusion.  Thus, the world in which man exist is within the domain of the duality. Thus the world in which man exists is mere a dualistic illusion. The dualistic illusion is created out of a single stuff and that single stuff is the Soul, which is present in the form of the Spirit. Thus, the Spirit (consciousness) alone is real and eternal. The ‘Spirit’ is the ultimate truth. The ultimate truth is God.

 On the standpoint of the Soul, the innermost Self, the religious Gods cease to exist because the Soul, which is the form of the ‘Spirit’ itself is God. All the religious Gods are imaginary Gods.

Religious Gods are an object, therefore the Soul, the innermost self, contradict such imaginary Gods who depend upon the Spirit’ for their existence. Every religion has its own idea of God or Gods. When there are two, then there is contradiction one cannot find non-contradiction in this dualistic world.

A Gnani boldly declares that the religious God does not exist, because Such Gods existence implies that the Soul, the innermost Self   different from God.

Bible says:~ “God is a Spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24)”.

In Yajurveda – chapter- 32:~,   It has been said that God Supreme or Supreme Spirit has no ‘Pratima’ (idol) or material shape. God cannot be seen directly by anyone. God pervades all beings and all directions. Thus,   Idolatry does not find any support from the Vedas.

The Vedas exclaim from time immemorial: ~     Ekam Sat Vipra Bahudha Vadanti, Existence is One Rig Veda, 1-164-146.

RIG VEDA: ~ The Atman (Soul) is the cause; Atman is the support of all that exists in this universe. May ye never turn away from the Atman the innermost self. May ye never accept another God in place of the Atman nor worship other than the Atman?" (10:48, 5)

The Upanishads say in effect that: ~ if you believe that the Soul is one and God (Brahman) is another you cannot understand Truth.

Brihad Upanishad: ~ “If you think there is another entity, whether man or God there is no truth."

The God is one and universal.  God is the Spirit.  The Spirit is the Soul, the innermost Self.  The God is the Soul, the innermost Self.  The Soul is the Supreme Being the One eternal homogeneous essence, indivisible consciousness   and intelligence, which is beyond the form, time and space.   To which the Sages describe in a variety of ways through diverse words.

Any kind of difference means contradiction. Nothing exist other than the Soul, which is present in the form of the ‘Spirit’. Advaita means the negation of the second thing. "Neti, Neti," not this, not this means ~ Negation of second thing other than the ‘Spirit’, which is God.   Every word we utter we are uttering within the dualistic illusion. The dualistic illusion is not permanent.

The way of negating "It is not this, not that" is also a way of defining, of conveying the meaning of Reality as much as any positive definition.  One has to mentally distinguish the real from the unreal.

The seeker has to go on negating the unreal world in which we exist by the realizing the Soul, which is present in the form of the Spirit (consciousness), which is real and eternal. The ‘Spirit’ is the cause of the universe in which we exist and it itself is uncaused.

 To find the Advaitic truth, which is beyond the form, time and space is to eliminate  the form, time and space mentally by  realizing the form, time and space are mere an illusion created out of the  ‘Spirit’.  The form, time and space are ‘Spirit’ in their essence.  Thus, ‘Spirit’ alone is real and eternal.   The ‘Spirit’ is ultimate truth and ultimate truth is God. 

Hinduism, is not a religion. Rather it is a group of religions found within India that share common beliefs while still remaining very different.***

Hindus assert their religion is monotheistic, even though they honour a number of Gods, including Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, and Shiva the Destroyer.  Hindus claim these various Gods are all manifestations of the oneness of the universe.  Hindu religious practices vary from place to place, but they frequently include yoga, physical and mental discipline to harmonize body and Soul, and ritual bathing.

Belief in multiple Gods, The worship of idols; the worship of images that are not God, The worship of sacred images, , ancestor worship, pilgrimage, priest craft, the belief in avatars or incarnations of God, the hereditary caste system on the grounds that all these lack Vedic sanction.

Hinduism indulges  non-Vedic beliefs  such as idolatry, ancestor worship, pilgrimages, priest craft, offerings made in temples, the caste system, untouchability and child marriages. All these lack Vedic sanction therefore Hinduism is not Ancient Vedic religion or Santana Dharma.

Realizing the universe is created out of single stuff and that single stuff is the Soul which is present in the form of consciousness leads non-dualistic or Advaitic ‘‘Self’’-awareness. ‘‘Self’’-awareness is freedom or Moksha. Moksha is unity in diversity in the midst of duality.

*

It is very difficult to talk to people about ultimate truth or Brahman because everyone thinks he knows the ultimate truth or Brahman. This I know business is dangerous.  And whatever his reached conclusion is second hand stuff.  Therefore, accepting accumulated knowledge without verification will lead the seekers to hallucinated realization based on the ego.  One may have some flashes of truth when someone tries to indicate it through fewer words. But it takes nearer to truth not realization. 

The Santana Dharma was pure Vedic religion prior to the existence of the present day Hinduism. Hinduism is not pure Vedic religion; it is hotch potch mixture of many ideologies adopted by other ideologies, cultures and traditions.

Most people from the west think that Hinduism is a religion but it is not so. The Indus (Sindhu) valley culture is named as Hinduism by the Muslim invaders in the past. Muslim invaders   who were not able to pronounce Sindhu they called Sindhu culture as Hindu culture. Thus name Hindu came into existence. Hinduism is mere culture not religion. This Hindu culture consists of different caste, creeds, ideologies, beliefs and way of life in different regions of India.

Hinduism, is not a religion. Rather it is a group of religions found within India that share common beliefs while still remaining very different. Many may even argue that it is not a religion but more a way of life. The term "Hinduism" was not developed by the practitioners, but by groups outside of the religions as a means for labeling the entire Indian people. thus Hindu means Indian. 

There are many groups within Hinduism that claim a sort of "going back to the Vedas". While these groups are attempting to create a bond with the Vedas, they will never be followers of Vedic relgion while they still hold their core ideals.

These core beliefs are at odds with those of the Vedas. Many followers of Hinduism do translate the Vedas to fit into Hindu thought by changing the translation to reflect the beliefs of monism, reincarnation, the caste system and absence of animal and human sacrifice. 

As one goes deeper in annals of the history he becomes aware of the fact that, the so called present Hinduism has adopted many things from Buddhism, religion of Abraham, Jainism and Islam. If one goes deeper enough he will become aware everything is mixed up and messed up in time.

No one is taken pains to rectify it because; because people have been inherited them, from their ancestors and they think it is blasphemy even to hear anything against their inherited religion and belief. Once one gets involved with the religious class it is the end of the pursuit of truth.

J.K and Osho went deep in to it and exposed their fallacies to some extent, but it is only in surface level. Maharishi, Dayananda in his book Satyarth Prakash clearly mentions what is Vedic and what is non-Vedic. But the orthodox class still wants to maintain the inherited falls legacy as supreme truth. Thus, there is no use of arguing or convincing the people who accepted their false legacy and propagate them as truth. Since, the pursuit of truth is a very personal journey; and it is not the pursuit of argument, there is no need for to indulge in convincing others, seeker of truth has to get convinced for him-self to drop all conditioning, which he has inherited from his belief system.

Prior to Sage  Sri, Sankara in 8th century there was no Advaita in Santana Dharma or Vedic religion has no founders whereas Advaita and qualified Advaita and Dwaita  and all other sect and caste  identified as Hinduism   are identified with their founders. All of them have non-Vedic rituals barred by the Vedas. The dualism came only in 12 th century. The orthodox Advaita and Dwaita area based on Abrahamic frame work. Both Advaita and Dwith schools based on Vedas and they condemn each other with Upanishads and Puranic citations and try to prove they are right and others are wrong. The orthodox Advaita is nothing to do with the ultimate truth or Brahman because they worship idols, human worship, and symbol worship and indulge in non-Vedic ritual barred by Vedas.

Sage Sri, Sankara varied his practical advice and doctrinal teaching according to the people he was amongst. He never advised them to give up their particular religion or beliefs or metaphysics completely; he only told them to give up the worst features of abuse: at the same time he showed just one step forward towards the truth.   Sage Sri, Sankara was extremely precise and careful in his choice of words. 

That is what Yajurveda says: not to worship the things which are part of the falsehood.

Translation 1.

They enter darkness, those who worship natural things (for example air, water, sun, moon, animals, fire, stone, etc).

They sink deeper in darkness those who worship sambhuti. (Sambhuti means created things, for example table, chair, idol etc.)- [Yajurved 40:9]

Translation 2.

"Deep into shade of blinding gloom fall asambhuti's worshippers. They sink to darkness deeper yet who on sambhuti are intent." -[Yajurveda Samhita by Ralph T. H. Giffith pg 538]

Translation 3.

"They are enveloped in darkness, in other words, are steeped in ignorance and sunk in the greatest depths of misery who worship the uncreated, eternal prakrti -- the material cause of the world -- in place of the All-pervading God, But those who worship visible things born of the prakrti, such as the earth, trees, bodies (human and the like) in place of God are enveloped in still greater darkness, in other words, they are extremely foolish, fall into an awful hell of pain and sorrow, and suffer terribly for a long time."-[Yajur Veda 40:9.]

So, Yajur Veda indicates that:~

They sink deeper in darkness those who worship sambhuti. (Sambhuti means created things, for example table, chair, idol etc [Yajurved 40:9]

Those who worship visible things born of the prakrti, such as the earth, trees, bodies (human and the like) in place of God are enveloped in still greater darkness, in other words, they are extremely foolish, fall into an awful hell of pain and sorrow, and suffer terribly for a long time." [Yajur Veda 40:9.]

The religion of the Veda knows no idols:

Max Müller says:~ "The religion of the Veda knows no idols; the worship of idols in India is a secondary formation, a degradation of the more primitive worship of ideal gods."

Therefore, there was no individual god or temples and worships in Vedic religion, which existed prior to Buddhism. Thus the individualized gods and temples must have been built later on, when the worships of idol were introduced. Thus the Vedic religion which existed in the past was free from idol and nature worship and idol worshiping rituals.

Thus, the present day’s worship of individual gods, created things, nature and human are against Vedic teachings, and it looks like it has been fabricated and introduced by priest craft. Since it, has passed on from one generation to the next it is hard for the people to believe the truth of their own religion, because they have sentimentally and emotionally involved in it and they refuse to accept anything else other than their inherited beliefs.