Adyathmic Dicussion - 380 -(Meher Baba)

Trev light Bown :- Meher Baba does sound very much awake and living as Gnani as formless being. But was it really without a Guru or teacher.

He was student/disciple of Hazarath Babajan for a 7 year process of spiritual guidance. He had contact with 5 others who he referred to as "the 5 perfect masters".

 Then he spent 5 years with Upsani Maharaja who himself was a disciple of Sai Baba of Shirdi.

So it is possible that it was by shaktipat/grace of Guru that he found enlightenment as well as deep thinking and grasping by mind.

SK:- When one bifurcates mysticism from Meher Baba’s writing one smells pure Advaitic essence. He says the innermost self is God.  Thus he bases his self on the real self, which is the soul. Hazarath Babazan was his guru but his spiritual mother. Meher Baba declared 5 Perfect masters.  Hazarath Babazan was a real Gnani who always immersed in the self-awareness. Sai Baba of Shiradi had not accepted any one as his disciple. But everyone around him considered Sai Baba as their guru or God.  Upasani Baba was one of the many who considered Sai Baba as his Guru.   Meher Baba went to meet Sai Baba to request him to accept him as his disciple but seeing Meher Baba, Sai Baba proclaimed as Parvadigar ( Messiah or Avatar)  and did not accept him as his disciple but sent his to meet Upasani Baba. Sai Baba never accepted Meher Baba as disciple even though Meher Baba declared Sai Baba as his Guru.  Upasani Baba declared Meher Baba as his disciple.  These are all mystical business.  The Sai Baba and Meher Baba both were Sufi saints of highest order and also they were Gnanis.   

All these inspiring stories  of the saints are important in the preliminary stages of spiritual pursuit but later stages the seeker has to drop all these because when the seeker gets to know the world is an illusion he will realize whatever is happening within the world is bound to be illusion. When the whole universe is made of the single stuff than the form and names within the illusory world has no value. 

Meher Baba declared: - To love God as he ought to be loved, we must love for God and die for god, knowing that the goal of life is to know God, and find him as our own self. It means find god as our innermost self -- that is he insisted for self –realization.

Meher Baba said: - To love God as he ought to be loved, we must love for God and die for god, knowing that the goal of life is to know God, and find him as our own self.

To realize God is to attain liberation from the bondage of illusion. 

Live only to find and realize your true identity with your beloved God.

The energy which is expended in mere thinking, taking or writing is like steam which escapes through the whistle of railway engine …

That is why the sages have always insisted on practice rather than theory. This applies particularly to those who want to know and realize God.  

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-----It means one has to one has to know and realize his inner most self is God and identify it has his true identity to find liberation from the bondage of  the illusion of birth, life, death and world (duality).   The goal of our life is to find and realize our identity with our beloved God, which is our innermost self. 

Neither Sai Baba nor Meher Baba were not the product of Shakti Path. Sai Baba and Meher Baba were real Gnanis for the seeker of truth and also they were guru or god and Avatara for the ignorant mass. The one who is in the path of wisdom must observe everything on the soulcentric view point then only they will be able to realize ‘what is truth’ and ‘what is untruth.   

Adyathmic Discussion -379

Trev Light Bown :- Every word requires at least basic workings of mind. But also those you quote from had been born "self realized" then died.

Or maybe it was the point of "self realization" that brought about their death as "I" thought.
Anything that is real will have a counterfeit reflection and so it is with Guru and spiritual teachers.

The Gnani is "being" walking talking and doing without "I" thought doership. He sees the dream and takes his destined part without "I" as a distraction, nor does he become involved in the dream. Non attached.

They take no pride in compliment nor grief at being ignored.
They neither rebuke or welcome followers but shine out the truth depending on how ripe is the student understanding.

There is no rule as to who might be Gnani,
Only the "I" is vacant allowing formless witness to see.

SK:- Dearest Trev, Man and his experience of the world are product of ignorance. If there is no ignorance then there is no man and his experience of the world.  The ignorance is present in the form of ‘I’. ‘I’ is not limited to the form alone. The ‘I’ is present only when the form, time and space are present. The ‘I’ is absent when form, time and space are absent.  Deeper self-search revels the fact that the ‘I’ itself is an illusion.  

Thus it is no point in inquiring ‘WHO AM ‘I’?

WHO AM ‘I’?  ‘WHAT AM ‘I’ inquiry limited to form. It helps the expose the unreality of the ego thus later stages the seekers will find it inadequate and useless to reach the ultimate end of understanding.  

Only sincere and serious seeker will be able to acquire Self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana others who are sentimentally involved with the gurus, yogis will remain ignorant hallucinating about the promised bliss or enlightenment.  What is the use of getting enlightenment on the false self (ego or waking entity) within the unreal world (waking)?  The seeker must realize the fact that, the self is not the waking entity but the self beyond form, time and space. The form, time and space are impermanent are impermanent and in reality the form, time and space are one in essence.   Without knowing ‘I’ is false he will not be able to realize the form, time and space is false. Without knowing the form, time and space is false he will not be able realize the experience of birth, life and death is false.  Without realizing experience of birth, life and death is false it is impossible to realize the universe is false (illusion).  Without realizing the world is an illusion it is impossible to acquire Self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana.  

Thus perfect understanding and assimilation is necessary in order to acquire Self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana.  All accumulated knowledge accumulated through different teacher and teaching theories path and practices has to mentally burnt and start a fresh if one wants truth nothing but truth. Serious and serious seekers are very few and they will get inner direction and able to reach ultimate end of understanding and realization. 

Majority of the seeker are skin deep. They are happy with the person who emotionally satisfies their feeling.   The truth pursuit is serious business. The urge to know the truth cannot be imposed on others.  It has to sprout within. One need not become holy Shepard because the holy Shepard is within in to guide every seeker. If one is aiming to be a master, Guru or teacher, he will never reach his destination. One has to share his knowledge with the fellow seeker not to make them his followers but only direct them if they are interested to travel beyond form, time and space.

It is foolish to impose our idea on others because everyone is not in same level of understanding.  Every one's inner work is on. When they are ripe enough they will understand, assimilate and realize on their own.  If they are ready and sharp enough they will grasp it instantly and they will reach their destination with lesser time and effort. Thus preaching, teaching is not wisdom, but by very careful reasoning, the seeker has to determine the nature of reality. Thinking in right direction alone helps seeker determining the nature of reality.

The people‘s approach is more practical, and they are stuck with the reality of the world, they take it as real.  If they take the world as reality it means they have accepted the birth, life, death, which takes place in the unreal world as reality. If they accept the experience of birth, life, death and the world as reality, it means they have accepted the form, time and space as reality. If the form, time and space is accepted as reality then duality will prevail as reality. If duality prevails as reality then it is impossible to understand, assimilate and realize the Nondualistic or Advaitic truth.  

When Sage Sri, Sankara says the world is an illusion, it includes birth, life and death, which happens within the world.  Thus the seekers main aim is to mentally trace the formless substance of the illusion, which is also the witness of the illusion. The formless substance and witness of the illusion (world) is the Atman, and this Atman itself is Brahman.

The people who are stuck to some teaching or teacher are no yet ready to acquire self-knowledge. As their spiritual maturity grows they become aware the teacher and his teaching are inadequate and useless to quench his spiritual thirst thus they start their journey independently.   

A Gnani silently works to clear the ignorance through wisdom he knows the arrows of wisdom enter to the core of the existence and the inner process will go on silently.    

The path of wisdom attracts only those who are in search of truth and they appreciate it greatly.   The ignorant are not spiritually matured the receive self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana.

The ‘I’ will not die but its unreal nature is exposed. It is foolish to venture to kill the ‘I’. A spiritual teacher believes in his teaching which he inherited from his guru thus he never investigates the validity of his gurus teaching.

The dream become unreal when waking takes place. The waking becomes unreal when wisdom dawns. The wisdom dawns when the waking entity (you) realizes it itself not the self but the self is that which witnesses the coming and going of the three states (I).    Thus ‘I’ is an object to the formless subject, which is ‘I’-Less(soul). 

 A Gnani is fully aware of the fact that, the subject (soul or spirit) and object (mind or matter) are one in essence.  Thus the Gnani being in this unreal world he is not of this world because he is fully aware of the fact that, the form time and space are made of single stuff. That single stuff is consciousness (soul). A Gnani sees his experience of the form, time and space as consciousness. Therefore a Gnani never sees a second thing other than the consciousness eventhough he is in the midst of duality.  If Gnani sees unity in diversity than there is no ‘I’ it has merged in its ‘I’-less substance.

Adyathmic Discussion -377

Trev Light Bown:-  It seems Dada Bhagwan is saying same as you. "Post on my page".

But knowledge even 100% is not awakening as Gnani. This is the awakening being claimed by many modern western Advaita teachers. Then they recant and say they were not really awake after all.

A direct insight into formless non duality consciousness is a life changing experience and can happen to those who are not spiritually minded.

Many "near death experiencers" report being at peace beyond words, or an uninterested observer in the out of body state. This has now been reported in near scientific laboratory conditions.. So The question is about knowledge.

Are you saying "mind knowledge" is all that is required to awaken as gnani, or is a direct experience. ?

SK. I never heard of this Dadashri. I have nothing to say about others, nor am I interested knowing who teaches what. If anyone is sharing Self- knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana they are doing a great help to the humanity. I respect everyone who is sharing self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana.

Only those who have directly known, truly understand the Truth, and can have the perseverance and passion to sharing it.

Self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana does not belong to any RELIGION, Guru or yogi it is universal property. Wherever there is guru and disciple, worships and prayers ,beliefs and faith there is no Self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana.

On page 482: On Gnani: "The knower of Brahman wears no signs. Gives up the insignia of a monk's life…his signs are not manifest, nor his behavior." When the knower of Brahman wears no signs it means he does not identify himself as Guru or teacher.

Dattatreya's Song of the Avadhut 1.36-42- Non-duality is taught by some; some others teach duality. They don't understand that the all-pervading Reality is beyond both duality and non-duality.

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When the self is birthless because it is formless . then what is the use of discussing about the experience of birth,life and death. All the talks of birth,life,death and the world and religious god belongs to duality (form). The duality is mere illusion created out of soul or consciousness. The experience of birth,life,death and the world are made of single stuff. that single stuff is consciousness. Thus talking about THE EXPERIENCE of birth,life,death and the world is Atamic discussion is an error.

Adyathmic Discussion-376-(Quantum Field)

M.K. Q:- The Vedanta and the Sankhya hold the key to the laws of mind and thought process which are co-related to the Quantum Field, i.e. the operation and distribution of particles at atomic and molecular levels.” -Prof. Brian David Josephson (1940 – ) Welsh physicist, the youngest Nobel Laureate

SK:- Both modern science and religion offer hypotheses and theories but there is one vital difference--science begins with facts which it collects; religion begins with fancies. Science evolves its hypotheses from such facts, religion from fancies.

Science declares that oxygen combines with hydrogen to give water. And it also declares oxygen is protons or electrons. But in pursuit of truth the whole physical existence (universe or mind) is considered as illusion and science and their inventions, which are based on the physical existence is limited to physical existence. The truth is within but it is beyond the physical existence.  The science demands physical proof.  But the physical proof is part of the illusion. Hence science cannot go beyond physicality because the truth cannot be traced with laboratory conditions.  Deeper Inquiry, analysis and reasoning is required if one wants to push its quest deeply enough.

Modern man appears to have acquired admirable knowledge in various fields of inventions in the physical world. However what man has acquired is limited to the physical world not beyond.  Man has to admit the fact that he cannot investigate the truth of his own existence through scientific inventions, because it is possible only through deeper thinking process. Above all, acquired physical based knowledge and power do not assure man of lasting happiness in the worldly life and peace evades him at every moment.

Sage Sri, Sankara says:- VC- 56. Neither by Yoga, nor by Sankhya, nor by work, nor by learning, but by the realisation of one's identity with Brahman is Liberation possible, and by no other means. 

Mind and thought process which are co-related to the Quantum Field, i.e. the operation and distribution of particles at atomic and molecular levels.- all these ideas are true on the physical base. the physical base is of the duality. the duality is not reality from the ultimate standpoint. in reality there is no second thing exists other than consciousness.  Thus all these theories based on the false self(ego or waking entity) hold no water from ultimate standpoint.   

There is a need of facts of physical proof in scientific invention, whereas in pursuit of truth the proof has to be grasped mentally and realized.  Therefore, the truth is realized only by few who take this mental pursuit.  “Whatever facts revealed, which is un-contradictable has to be accepted as truth.