Sunday, March 24, 2013
Adyathmic Discussion -367
Trev Light
Bown What do you mean by mentally grasped as in the following
paragraph. "Deeper self-search reveals the fact that the, self is neither
the waking entity nor the self is the dream entity but the self is formless
soul, which witnesses the coming and going of the three states in succession
without the physical apparatus. This has to be mentally grasped and assimilated
to realize the formless soul, the innermost self is nothing to do with the
three states. On the standpoint of the three states, the three states are mere
illusion."
This very much sounds like a mind trying to understand the incomprehensible. A Guru would send you on a 5 year retreat to wear out this mind "I" that thinks it can know.
This very much sounds like a mind trying to understand the incomprehensible. A Guru would send you on a 5 year retreat to wear out this mind "I" that thinks it can know.
SK:- There is no need to condemn any gurus or yogi because the seekers only aim is to acquire nondualistic wisdom. The Guru,disciple and the world are one in essence. The gurudom is religious concept. The religion is based on duality. the duality is mere an illusion from ultimate standpoint. Holding on to guru is holding on to duality. Holding on to duality is accepting the illusion as reality. once the reason becomes soul -centric then he will realize how the gurus teaching are inadequate and useless in pursuit of truth.
Deeper self-search is investigating through a mental microscope (inquiry
and soul- centric reasoning)
Without realizing what is the mind?, it is impossible to grasp Non- dualistic or Advaitic
truth. Firstly one has to realize we the mind is not within the body but the
body, ego and the world are within the
mind (I) . Without understanding this fact
it is no use of discussing because you are discussing on the base of ego
(waking entity) and my answers are based
on the soul, the innermost self.
It takes a lot of time to train
the ego to become soul- centric. Once the reasoning base is rectified from form (ego)
to formless then the truth will start revealing
in its own and you will be able to understand what I am saying. Now in waking experience(at present) the ego reasons ‘what is right’ and ‘what is wrong’,, ,which is very helpful in
the practical life impractical world. In soul- centric reasoning it will start
discriminating between real and unreal and truth and untruth.
Most of the modern Gurus are also stuck
with ‘I’ awareness as self-awareness. The ‘I’ awareness is present only when
the mind is present. Mind is present only when the universe is present.
Universe is present only when the waking or dream is present. The ‘I’ awareness is absent when the mind is
absent. Mind is absent than the universe or waking or dream is absent. Thus ‘I’
awareness is mere illusion. The
self-awareness is ‘I- LESS AWARENESS.
It is impossible to get rid any
conditioning without getting rid the
inborn samskara or conditioning. ‘I’ or
‘I AM’ is the inborn samskara or conditioning. ‘I’ or ‘I AM’ is mother of all conditioning.
Because of this inborn conditioning one thinks he is an individual separate
from the world and world existed prior to him and he is born in it afterwards.
Until this inborn conditioning is present one is in the grip of duality and he
experiences the birth, life, death and the world as reality. This inborn conditioning makes one experience the
illusory duality as reality.
Man has a firm conviction that he is an individual separate from
the world and world existed prior to him and he is born in in it
afterwards. This conviction makes him
remain in ignorance. And ignorance makes him accept the illusion as
reality. Thus he is caught up in the web
of illusion experiencing the birth, life, death and the world as reality.
What is this universe (samsara), what is this illusion to the
formless soul or consciousness, the innermost self? Consciousness and the universe both are one
in essence ultimately. Only people who
are stuck to the reality of the universe think the body as body, ego as ego and
the world as world. It never strikes in
them the waking experience in which they exist along with their world also as
unreal as a dream.
The dream becomes unreal when waking takes place and the waking
becomes unreal when waking entity gets wisdom and realizes it is not the self
but the self is the formless witness (soul) of the three states. The consciousness is within the three states
as their formless substance and it is apart from the three states as their
formless witness. It is apart because it
is not and entity or identity within the three states.
The person, who stamped their feet on the ground to refute to
show the world, is real, ignore that in a dream he would do exactly the
same--stamp his dream foot on the ground and assert it to be real.
When wisdom dawns, the soul, the innermost self, wakes up in its
formless nondual true nature in the midst of duality (waking). For a Gnani the
body, ego and the universe are a mere mirage created out of consciousness.
When the
universe (mind) is considered not different from the consciousness (soul),
which is the innermost self, then there is the division of form, time and
space. When form, time and space are one
in essence then where is the universe (mind).
The universe (waking) is both real and unreal. It is real because it is
a manifestation of consciousness, but is unreal, in the sense, that it is not
absolute and eternal like consciousness itself.
People
try to overcome their inherited religious conditioning but it by getting rid of
the religious conditioning one will not be able to overcome the physical
shackle. One has to get rid of the
inborn samskara or conditioning itself by realizing the fact that ‘I’ or ‘I AM’ is not the self.
Only
by getting rid of the ignorance one can get rid of the inborn samskara or conditioning.
v
What is the use of
arguing on base of the birth entity, which is not the self?
v
What is the use of
knowing what happens after death when the self is birthless?
v
What is the use of
thinking of the heaven and hell when the self is not an individual and it is
never born and never dies?
But
he is unaware of the fact that, he and his experience of the world are within
the waking experience. The waking
experience appears and disappears, same way as the dream. When there is dream
than there is no waking. When there is waking than there is no dream. When there is neither the dream nor the
waking it is identified as deep sleep in waking experience. One is aware of the dream or deep sleep only
in waking. The one which is aware of the
coming and going of the three states is neither the waking entity nor the dream
entity but the formless witness of the three states.
All the scriptures indicate that Atman is Brahman, and Brahman is
ultimate truth. Therefore the soul, which is in the form of consciousness, is
ultimate truth. Thus to realize the ultimate truth is the prime goal.
A well-directed inquiry, analysis and reasoning will lead one to
his nondual destination.
Adyathmic Discussion-366
Trev Light
Bown :- You say "The soul is in the form of formless
consciousness". So obviously the soul can not be a form within formless consciousness. This is
not nit picking on my behalf, I am just pointing out the confusion that words
create. I can see past your words to inner meaning. why are you not able to do
the same with those you label duality sages guru/master teachers.
S.K :- The Soul (consciousness) is self-evident . It is not established by extraneous proofs. It
is not possible to deny the Atman, because It is the very essence of the one
who denies It. The consciousness is the
basis of all kinds of knowledge, presuppositions and proofs.
Consciousness
is within, consciousness is without; consciousness is before, consciousness is
behind;consciousness is on the right, consciousness
is on the left; consciousness is above
and consciousness is below. Consciousness is not an object because it is the formless
subject.
I searched for truth and found only the soul. I searched for the soul and found only truth.
The
soul or consciousness, the innermost self is the witness-consciousness that experiences
the action, the actor, and the world of separate things. It is like a light
that illuminates everything in a theatre, revealing the master of ceremonies,
the guests, and the dancers with complete impartiality. Even when they all
depart, the light shines to reveal their absence.
Consciousness is the root element of the universe. From consciousness
the universe comes into existence. In the consciousness the universe resides.
And into the consciousness the universe is dissolved. Consciousness is the parent of all that is
there is.
The people ‘ s approach is more
practical, and they are stuck with the
reality of the world, they take it as real. If they take the world as reality it means
they have accepted the birth, ,life, ,death, ,which takes place in the unreal
world as reality. If they accept the
birth, life, death and the world as reality, it means they have accepted the form,time and space as reality. If the form,time and space is
accepted as reality then duality will prevail as reality. If duality prevails
as reality then it is impossible to understand, assimilate and realize the Nondualistic
or Advaitic truth.
Your body, your ego, your experience of the world are one in essence. Till
you consider your body as body your ego as ego, your experience of the world as
the world you will remain in the realm of the duality. Till you remain in the realm of the duality
you are stuck to the reality of the experience of the birth, life, death and
the world,which is mere illusion from the ultimate standpoint. Till you are
stuck to the reality of the experience of the birth, life, death and the world
you will not be able to know the mystery of the form,time and space. Without knowing
the mystery of the form,time and space you will not be able to realize the mind
is a myth. Without realizing the mind is a myth you will not be able to accept
the universe as an illusion. Without realizing the universe as an illusion you
will not be able know achieve unity in diversity.
When Sage Sri, Sankara says the world is an illusion, it
includes birth, life and death, which happens within the world. Thus the seekers main aim is to mentally
trace the formless substance of the illusion, which is also the witness of the
illusion. The formless substance and witness of the illusion (world) is the
Ataman, and this Ataman itself is Brahman.
The nature of the mind,
which is present in the form of the universe, is constant flux. The universe appears as waking or dream.
Without being aware of the existence of the formless witness the three states
people think everything is in flux in the
universe.
The
permanent thing is the substance of the mind or the universee. The formless substance is the witness of the
mind (I) or the universee. The formless
substance and witness are one in essence. That essence is the soul, which is
present in the form of consciousness.
The soul or consciousness is real and permanent. The universe isa mere miragee created out of
consciousness.
The world is both real and unreal. It is real
because it is a manifestation of consciousness, but is unreal, in the sense,
that it is not absolute and eternal like consciousness itself.
Dualists approach is more practical, and they stuck with the
reality of the world, they take it as real.
On the standpoint the soul, the innermost self, the
universe is mere mirage. The soul is the
permanent all else mere illusion. Man
and exist in the unreal universe and by discussing on the standpoint of the ego
(waking entity) which is the false self within the false experience will leads
to perversity.
In self-awareness the body is not considered as a
body, ego is not considered as ego and the world is not considered as world
because the body, ego and the world too are nothing but consciousness. In self-awareness there is no flux. There is
unity in diversity. Only in ignorance
the illusion is experienced as reality. The nature of the illusion is impermanent
and constant flux whereas the nature of the soul or consciousness is permanent
and still.
It is no use in arguing
with the dualist and intellectuals because they are right on their own
standpoint. Pursuit of truth interests
only few. Ultimate truth or Advaitic truth is not the product to sell in the spiritual
supermarket. One should not to ‘throw advatic pearls before swine’. The urge to know the truth cannot be
imposed on others. It has to sprout
within. One need not become holy Shepard because the holy Shepard is within in
to guide every seeker. If one is aiming to be a master, Guru or teacher, he
will never reach his destination. One has to share his knowledge with the
fellow seeker not to make them his followers but only direct them if they are
interested to travel beyond form, time and space.
It is foolish to
impose our idea on others because everyone is not in same level of
understanding. Every one's inner work is
on. When they are ripe enough they will understand, assimilate and realize on
their own. If they are ready and sharp
enough they will grasp it instantly and they will reach their destination with
lesser time and effort. Thus preaching, teaching is not wisdom, but by very
careful reasoning, the seeker has to determine the nature of reality. Thinking
in right direction alone helps seeker determining the nature of reality.
The sugar cannot know itself its sweetness. The true self without
ignorance is without the experience of duality or illusion. Thus one has to
base on the sugar not on its sweetness. Without the sugar there is no
sweetness. Similarly without the consciousness, the three states cease to exist
as reality.
There are millions in search of truth but one in million will be able
to grasp it. I am just posting what
revels from the inner core. I just share with like minded fellow seekers. I am just highlighting the obstacle in the
pursuit of truth. Self-knowledgee or Brahma Gnana or AtmaGhanaa is not based on
any teaching or teacher. Pursuit of truth is the pursuit of verification not
pursuit of argument. Intellectual discussion ithe greatestat
hindrance in pursuit of truth.
All the FP and IP blogs are verified truth derived from deeper
self-search. If one goes on reading all his doubts and confusion will start
clearing. It takes time to receptive to Self-Knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma
Gnana because it is soul-centric knowledge whereas all accumulated knowledge
are egocentric.
All accumulated knowledge is of no use in the path of wisdom. Without realizing “What is truth it is impossible to realize “What is
untruth?” Without realizing what is truth and what is untruth it is impossible
to assimilate the Self –Knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana. Thus one
must know with full and firm conviction what truth is.
The wisdom consists in knowing the
truth, that everything (mind or physical existence) is consciousness. Freedom
(ultimate truth) is always there yet one does not know it. But to those whose reason is turned away from
physicality and who have attained the serenity of the soul or consciousness, the
innermost self, are quite near to realizing the ultimate truth or Brahman.
To think once own body and his
experience of the world is an illusion is difficult matter, unless one realizes
the self is not physical but it is formless soul it is difficult to have
glimpse of truth.
When one realizes the fact that, the
self is not physical but the formless soul, naturally the body and universe
becomes illusion.
The mind (universe) is emanating from
soul (consciousness) means the mind is being effect from consciousness is not
different from it. Deeper analysis shows it. Analysis needs deeper thinking and
reasoning. Mind is whole universe thus it has a form. But where is the form in
consciousness [formless soul] because consciousness is like an ocean and mind
is like wave. The universe is same
consciousness, as the ocean produces the wave, so the consciousness produces
the mind (universe).
The moment one knows the mind
(universe) is consciousness, and then there is no ignorance. If one knows
consciousness as self then everything is consciousness, the consciousness is
second to none. The mind is
consciousness but due to ignorance one mistakes it for something else. One
thinks the self is within the body; but the self is without the body and the
world.
When one is unable to quench his
spiritual thirst from his guru or teaching he has to look elsewhere to clear
the cobwebs of his understanding and to move forward in his spiritual quest.
It is no use of arguing with someone who has faith in his belief system
because for him there can be no possible refutation of what he believes, so
rational argument is entirely useless. He clings to his belief so strongly that
he makes no distinction between the truth and his belief. One has to know the
fact that god cannot exist without his existence. The truth does not depend on
gods’ existence but it entirely depends on man’s existence. Thus it is foolish to venture in knowing the
truth of gods existence without verifying the facts about his own
existence.
It is difficult for tradition-bound people to accept anything as truth
other than what they inherited from the inborn
and inherited conditioning and parental grooming and their accumulated
knowledge. Only intense urge to know the truth and courage to accept the truth
after verification with better understanding one will be able to drop all his
accumulated dross, which is the main obstacle in self-realization.
Katha Upanishad:- This Atman
is attained by him alone whom It chooses. To such a
one Atman reveals Its own form. [Katha Upanishad Ch-II -23-P-20]
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