Adyathmic Discussion -390 ( The knower of Brahman wears no signs)

Trev Light Bown: - The Universe is only illusion from point of view of the observer formless witness. Taking part in everyday activities is no longer such a serious activity. But the part must be played out.

There is realisation that the person you thought is no longer the doer. Action just happens. Can you say more on the doer?

SK:- A Gnani being in the illusion he is not of the illusion. Doer and doing and the world are all within the duality.  With perfect equanimity, even in practical life within the practical world a Gnani attends all his worldly duties like any other commoner. He may have sorrows but he is in perfect equanimity because he is aware of the fact that, the physical awareness is mere illusion created out of the soul, the innermost self. He is fully aware of the fact that the physical life started within the illusion and ends within the illusion. In self-awareness the soul, the innermost self is free from experiencing the form, time and space in the midst of the duality.

Where is the doer, where is the doing where is the world when the soul is in awareness of its own formless nondual nature. The doership, doing and the world belongs to the illusion. Whatever is happening within the illusion will go on happening the soul the witness of the illusion is unaffected by the happening within the illusion because it is ever formless. All the dualistic knowledge is limited to the illusion.

Where is the past? Where is the present and where is the future? Where is the form? Where is the time? Where is space? For the soul, the innermost self, which is ever formless?  

A Gnani acts and reacts as a commoner in the practical life within the practical world with a perfect equanimity of both in illusion or reality.   

On page 482: On Gnani: "The knower of Brahman wears no signs. Gives up the insignia of a monk's life…his signs are not manifest, nor his behavior."  When the knower of Brahman wears no signs it means he remains as commoner does not identify himself as wise man and others are less wise.  

The man who claims to be a Gnani but must advertise it by wearing a monks  robe, or sitting in a cave, or remains nude, is thereby proving that he is thinking of the body, is attached to it; he is not a  true Gnani. The latter has no need to distinguish himself when he knows all is One. All Those distinctions mentioned are for religious guru or yogi.

The Gnani will feel that millions are suffering in the world, but simultaneously he will also know that they identify themselves wrongly with their finite selves. He will understand his limitation through being in the realm of form, time and space and knows that he cannot help them all, so he will do whatever it is possible for him to do. He will make use of his body to whatever extent it is possible in helping others, but admittedly he can relieve only a tiny fraction of humanity.

Both Gnani and ignorant see the multiplicity, but Gnani does not take the differences which he sees as being real. That is the difference between them. The Gnani sees the unity behind the differences and considers the welfare of all others as his own.  A true Gnani can never renounce anything. It is impossible. He has only renounced the idea of a separation.

Gnanis are one in millions for they have ignored the opinions of whole peoples in their independent search of truth, and questioned all beliefs, all scriptures, all authorities, until they could be proved to be true.

 Even the arguments that religions have been followed since time immemorial makes no difference to them, because if people have believed a false thing over thousands of years, the length of time does not prove it true.

The Gnani’s position is that if enjoyment comes, he accepts it; if it does not, he keeps quiet. Even when he is taking pleasures, however, he is not deluded by them and he regards them as a game of life since he knows their unreality: he does not take them seriously. Clouds do not affect the sky, although they appear to; so the pleasures do not change the Gnani.

The Gnani will follow whatever occupation he wishes according to circumstances. There are no prohibitions for him. He may be a barber or a billionaire.

Adyathmic Discussion --390 -(chirst conciousness).

Trev light Bown: - This was posted as a comment to a post by Leonard Jacobson saying that Christ consciousness and God consciousness are not same Formless non duality.

Dearest Trev,

I respect the views and wisdom of Leonard Jacobson

As per my conviction

Firstly Christ is not physical. Christ means ultimate truth or Brahman. Brahman is God.  There is only one consciousness because consciousness is second to none.  

No conceptual God can exist, apart from the spirit (consciousness) because the spirit itself is God.  

People are not aware of the fact that, there is no individual God can exist, apart from consciousness, which is in the form of consciousness. Thus the consciousness is the consciousness.  Consciousness is the true self.   If there is no consciousness, then there is no body, no ego, no universe, no religion and no conceptual god. 

People think that there must be a creator of this universe. If one thinks physical entity or ego  as self, then there is a creator, but if one thinks the consciousness or consciousness  as the Self, then there is nothing exists other than the consciousness, which is the true self. 

If one objectifies and sees a universe, then he is bound to see many things beside himself and postulate a God, the creator. Body, God and world rise and set together from, and into, the Self (consciousness). If God is apart from the Self (spirit or consciousness), then He would be selfless, that is, outside existence, that is, non-existent.

Consciousness is the root element of the universe. From consciousness the universe comes into existence. In the consciousness the universe resides. And into the consciousness the universe is dissolved.   Consciousness is the parent of all that is there is.

The consciousness is the only reality, and the universe to but an illusory manifestation. Advaita does not prove that there is ONE! It proves that there is no second thing.

Theological thinkers say God is a perfect being, but they have never known God, never proved his existence; hence their ascription of perfection to Him is purely self-imagined. If one has to test truth in the next world only, then there is no proof of the existence of the next world, other than it is mentioned in the doctrines. The doctrines truth is not ultimate truth.  Scriptures are being added to from time to time. This process will go on. There is the final authority among them? One contradicts the other: duality reigns supreme.

Suppose one sees God. How is he to know that He is God? His mere statement is not enough. He must have proof; He must show that He is God.

It is impossible to prove the existence of God by any reasoning: one can only say "I believe. Belief is not truth. “The most rational position is that:  "I do not know."  Every religion has its own idea of the god,   the paradise, heaven, sin and karma.  But where people have got a little thinking capacity, they begin to disbelieve through the contradictions of various contending orthodox claims and descriptions.

Unless one gives up the ideas of the idea of god, heaven and hell, it is impossible assimilate Nondualistic or Advaitic truth. Truth must be proved here and now, on this world, in this very life. Not in next world and next life.  The idea, as the existence of personal God heaven, hell and sin and karma are mere imagination based on the false self (waking entity) within the false experience (waking).  When waking experience itself is false then whatever one sees, knows, believe and experiences are bound to be falsehood.

The seeker of truth has to pursue this quest until his questions will be answered, until his problems will disappear and his doubts will be solved.  Only through soul-centricity the truth will revealed.

Only in non-duality, where there are no two to argue about views or to have a difference of opinion can such doubtlessness be possible.  Belief depends upon unstable bases whereas certainty depends on proof.

The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, Not in a mansion of wood and stone.  Split a piece of wood and God is there, Lift a stone and you will find God." (Gospel of Thomas)

"Jesus said: -"Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all." (Gospel of Thomas 2)

Jesus said: -”Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you. (THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS- Saying 5)

Gospel Thomas Logan 22: - Jesus saw infants being suckled. He said to his disciples, “These infants being suckled are like those who enter the kingdom.”

They said to him, “Shall we then, as children, enter the kingdom?”

Jesus said to them, “When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female is female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom.”

n  It means –where there are no two (duality) there is Nonduality.  Nonduality is the nature of the  Spirit or God. The one who realzes there is only one (spirit)  enter the kingdom. 

Consciousness  has no such thing as upper or lower (part), it has no inside or outside, it has no middle or any ‘across’, and it has no eastern or western direction, because it is all-pervading like space or pervades space also. It is one and without parts. It remains as the one self, free from all diversities.

Consciousness is formless and colorless; it is not tiny, nor big. It is neither short nor long. It is not knowable since it is of the nature of effulgence. It remains as the one self, free from the dualities.

There is neither teacher nor teaching, neither student nor instruction, neither “Me” nor “you”, nor this universe. The knowledge of the real nature of consciousness does not admit of different perceptions. It remains as the one auspicious self, free from all attributes.

Consciousness, which is the true self, does not have the state of waking, nor of the dream, nor of deep sleep. These three states are only the products of ignorance. Consciousness is beyond these three states and it remains as the one self, free from all states.

Consciousness is all-pervading, is the desired goal, is self-existent, and is not dependent on anything else, while the entire universe which is different from it is unreal. Consciousness remains as the one self-free from all divisions.

 Consciousness is not one; how can there be a second different from it? It has neither absoluteness nor non-absoluteness. It is neither void nor non-void since it is devoid of duality.  It cannot be described that which is the formless essence of the all the three states.  

The eternal truth within the universe (mind) and it is without the universe (mind). Direct knowledge of self can be acquired by one through the Self while realizing the Self. Self- realization is the essence of human existence. Where there is unity, one without a second; there is a world of nondual reality. The nondual truth is ultimate truth. And the ultimate truth itself is Brahman or God or Christ or Buddha.

Adyathnic Discussion - 389

Trev Light Bown: - What about Orphanage in Nepal. Is that an illusion to you. What if old Santthosh was one of the children?

Suppose if you had asked the same question to me in your  dream that:-   The Nepal, its orphanage and the children  and you, I, others and the whole universe, which contains everything within  the dream becomes unreal when waking takes place.  

The dream  is created out of single stuff. similarly the waking and dream also created out of the same stuff. That   stuff is consciousness.  The single stuff is real the three states are  mere an illusion is created out of consciousness.

Dream become unreal when waking takes place. That means the dream entity, people within the dream and the dream world becomes unreal. Same way the waking entity and people within the waking experience and the waking world becomes unreal when wisdom dawns.

A person, who stamped his foot on the ground to refute to show the world, is real, ignore that in dream he would do exactly the same--stamp his dream foot on the ground and assert it to be real. 

 “From the standpoint of the waking entity the universe is a reality from the standpoint of the soul, the innermost self, the universe is mere illusion created out of consciousness. When wisdom dawns then one realizes the whole universe is consciousness. The dualistic view is possible only in ignorance. At the dawn of Self-knowledge or Brahma Gnana or Atma Gnana there is only non-dualistic view in the midst of duality because the whole universe is consciousness. Thus all the contents of the universe are also consciousness. Thus form, time and space are mere illusion created out of consciousness. If the form time and space are consciousness than the experience birth, life and death also consciousness.   

Sri Sankara and Maya or illusion:- 

  

VlSHNUVARDHANA, the King of the Hoysalas, was a Vaishnavite and was greatly incensed at the doctrine taught by Sri, Sankara that everything here below is an illusion. He wanted to teach the exponent of this doctrine a lesson. So he invited the then Sri, Sankara to his palace. That holy man went there and stoutly maintained that everything in this world was illusion. The king had arranged to let loose an infuriated elephant against Sri, Sankara. The beast rushed at Sri, Sankara who took to a precipitate flight to save himself.

'Oh, Venerable Sir,' shouted the king, 'why do you run so fast seeing that the elephant is only an illusion?'

'Oh, king,' said Sri, Sankara in his course of his flight, 'my running too is an illusion. Everything in this world is an illusion.’

Similarly, we are unaware of the fact that we are within the illusion because we exist within the waking world.  The waking experience itself is an illusion.  Due to ignorance of the innermost self, the illusion is experienced as reality.

All our love and concern to humanity is reality within the illusion. A Gnani shows his love concern to humanity like any other human being.   

Adyathmic Discussion -387 (Sage Sri, Sankara)

Trev Light Bown:  You say formless witness will never be experienced and that Guru/ disciple as pointer to truth within is for ignorant. But Adi Shankara who you endlessly quote from was indeed such a disciple. See quote below.............

" Sannyasa

At the age of 8, Shankara was inclined towards sannyasa, but it was only after much persuasion that his mother finally gave her consent. He only received her consent in a very interesting manner. While bathing in the river Poorna one day, a crocodile caught hold of his leg. Shankara appealed to his mother, who had arrived at Poorna, asking for permission to become a sanyasi. His mother finally gave consent, only to have the crocodile let go of young Shankara. A crocodile had never been found in Poorna ever since[21] Shankara then left Kerala and travelled towards North India in search of a guru. On the banks of the Narmada River, he met Govinda Bhagavatpada the disciple of Gaudapada at Omkareshwar. When Govinda Bhagavatpada asked Shankara's identity, he replied with an extempore verse that brought out the Advaita Vedanta philosophy. Govinda Bhagavatapada was impressed and took Shankara as his disciple.[22]"

SK: Dearest Trev, - Sage Sri, Sankara wisdom (Advaita) —Without a Parallel Sage Sri Sankara's wisdom is lofty, sublime and unique. It is highly interesting, inspiring and elevating. No other wisdom can stand before it in boldness, depth and subtle thinking.  Sage Sri, Sankara’s philosophy is complete and perfect

Sage Sri Sankara was a mighty, marvellous genius. He was a profound thinker of the first rank. He was a sage of the highest realization. His wisdom has brought solace, peace and illumination to countless persons in the world. The Western thinkers bow their heads at the lotus-feet of Sri Sankara. His wisdom has soothed the sorrows and afflictions of the most forlorn persons, and brought hope, joy, wisdom, perfection, freedom and calmness to many. His wisdom commands the admiration of the whole world.

Biographical anecdotes about his childhood about the crocodile story and the story in Sage Sri,   Sankara's life of going to Benares and occupying the body of another man and then having sex intercourse with his wife, is a myth created by orthodoxy hiding the real fact the reason best-known to the orthodoxy. Sage, Sri, Sankara had the scientific spirit and when told by Saraswathi the woman that he was talking emptily about sex, being a Sanyasi, he at once went to learn the truth by having actual intercourse himself and thus learning by experiment and observation.

Thus all the myth about Sage Sri, Sankara is nothing to do with the seeker of truth because the seeker is concerned only with the wisdom of the Sage Sri, Sankara.  

Sage Sri, Sankara: - "Though I wear these robes of a Sanyasin, it is only for the sake of bread." (Select Works of Sage Sri, Sankara" also his commentary on Brihad)

Sage Sri, Sankara: - The Gnani "should pass through life", not run away from life and should take a middle course between seeking worldly honor and worldly abasement. (Chap.3.4.50; Sankara's commentary to Brahma Sutras)

Sage Sri, Sankara's work has got two aspects: the practical and the spiritual. He gave religious, ritual or dogmatic instruction to the populace but pure wisdom only to the few who could rise to it. Hence the interpretation of his writings by commentators is often confusing because they mix up the two viewpoints. Thus they may assert that ritual is a means of realizing Brahman, which is absurd.

Sage Sri, Sankara varied his practical advice and doctrinal teaching according to the people he was amongst. He never told them to give their particular religion or beliefs or metaphysics completely; he only told them to give up the worst features of abuse: at the same time he showed just one step forward towards the truth.

Sage Sri, Sankara was extremely precise and careful in his choice of words. He was no fool in writing.  Sage Sankara did more than write books or initiate Sanyasin: He brought India into a unity as a nation. He told people to Worship what they wish, remain in their particular religion, caste and creed, but remember also you are part of a larger whole.

                                                                                                                

The look of an object will depend upon the medium through the observer views it. In fact our mental and intellectual conditions will determine the phenomenal world observed and experienced.  The orthodox pundit   seeing Sage Sri, Sankara will see differently from the A Gnani seeing the same Sage Sri, Sankara.  Each one of them interprets the world that they see in terms of their existing knowledge.  The orthodox sees Sri, Sankara as founder of their religion and also as a guru of Advaitic orthodox sect.  A man of truth sees Sage Sri, Sankara not as a guru but as a Gnani. The orthodoxy believes their experience of the birth, life, death and rebirth and the world as reality. Whereas a Gnani sees the world is mere illusion created out of consciousness.  Thus Gnani sees no second thing other than consciousness. The one who treads the path of wisdom gains the knowledge of the reality beyond form, time and space. A  Gnani has delved into and he transcended consciously all identification with the experience form, time and space.

Similarly orthodoxy has to be bifurcated from philosophy. To know Nondualistic wisdom of Sage Sri, Sankara one has to be free from all superstitions and dogmas and orthodoxy and scriptural knowledge.  The seeker has to be more rational and scientific in his attitude.

According to Advaita Vedanta, the Veda addresses itself to two kinds of audiences - the ordinary ones who desire the transitory heaven and other pleasures obtained as a result of ritual sacrifices, and the more advanced seeker who seeks to know Brahman. Thus, the purva mimam.sa, with its emphasis on the karma kanda of the Vedas, is meant for the first audience, to help lead its followers along the way. However, the Vedanta, with its emphasis on the Jnana Kanda, is meant for those who wish to go beyond such transient pleasures.

Sage Sri, Sankara said: - Talk as much philosophy as you like, worship as many gods as you please, observe ceremonies and sing devotional hymns, but the liberation will never come, even after a hundred aeons, without realizing the Oneness.

Philosophy does not begin with the ultimate truth. Ultimate truth has to be proved, not assumed. Hence, so-called philosophers who take Brahman for granted are not philosophers at all.

Lots of Advaitin scholars will teach that all is yourself, but none of them can show that this is so, none has analyzed it scientifically, and none can prove it. Rational proof is required, so that one arrive at knowing the ultimate truth or Brahman i.e. Gnana.  Theirs is mere dogma, parrotism, a repetition of what they read in scripture.  Authoritarianism merely assumes as true what another says, but what has yet to be proved.

Sage Sri Sankara’s whole teaching can be summed up into one sentence, ‘There is nothing else but Brahman. He says that the Absolute Existence, Absolute Knowledge and Absolute Bliss are real. The universe is not real. He says that Brahma and Atman are one. The ultimate and the Absolute Truth is the Self, which is one though appearing as many different individuals. The individual has no reality. Only the Self is real; the rest, mental and physical are but passing appearances.

Genuine philosophy must be independent of religion, that in Sage Sri, Sankara himself the Saguna Brahman or a personal God is only a part of the phenomenal (if not illusory) world, and the Nirguna Brahman is the only reality and has nothing to do with religion. 

Sage Sri Sankara pokes fun at ascetics and points out that all their austerities do not cause desires to go (Altar Flowers" Page 205, v.2 P.207 v.4)

The Brahma Sutras together with Sri Sankara's commentary thereon do not contain the higher wisdom. They are intended for those who are incapable of thinking rationally.

Sage Sri, Sankara's commentary on the Brahma Sutras is not on a philosophical basis, but on an orthodox and mystic basis, with appeal to the Vedas as final authority.

In Brahma Sutra Sage Sri, Sankara takes the position that there is another entity outside us, i.e. the wall really exists separately from the mind. This was because Sage Sri, Sankara explains in Mandukya that those who study the Sutras are orthodox minds, intellectual children, hence his popular view point to assist them. These people are afraid to go deeper because it means being heroic enough to refuse to accept Sruti, and God's authority, in case they mean punishment by God.  A Gnani says the scriptures for children, but wise seekers will think rationally.

In Brahma Sutras Sage Sri, Sankara takes for granted, assumes that a world was created: He there mixes dogmatic theology with philosophy.

That God created the world is an absolute lie, nevertheless one will find Sage Sri, Sankara (in his commentary on Vedanta Sutras) clearly says this! He has to adapt his teachings to his audience, reserving the highest for philosophical minds.

The text of Brahma Sutras is based on religion, dogmatism but in the commentary Sage Sri, Sankara cleverly introduced some philosophy. If it is objected that a number of Upanishads are equally dogmatic because they also begin by assuming Brahman, only a few Upanishads do not, but prove Brahman at the end of a train of proof.

Scholars translation of Brahma Sutras in Sacred Books of East must be read cautiously as he has not understood its highest sense, e.g. for Advaita they wrongly puts "Unity" instead of “Non-duality."

Sage Sri Sankara gave religion and scholasticism and yoga no less than philosophy, to the seeking world. He was great enough to be able to do so. His commentary on Mandukya is pure philosophy, but many of his other books are presented from a religious standpoint to help those who cannot rise up to philosophy.

Orthodoxy is the home of mysticism and deification that is why they are not keen rational truth. Thus Sage Sankara is guru to the religious followers and he is a great Gnani to the seeking world.   

Adyathmic Discussion -388 (Kingdom of God)

The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, Not in a mansion of wood and stone.  Split a piece of wood and God is there, Lift a stone and you will find God." (Gospel of Thomas)

Sage Sri Sankara –VC--"All this universe which through ignorance appears as of diverse forms, is nothing else but Brahman which is absolutely free from all the limitations of human thought

"It is this Supreme Oneness which alone is real, since there is nothing else but the Self. Verily, there remains no other independent entity in the state of realization of the highest Truth." 

 One has to realize the fact that, it is not the waking entity (you) which witnesses the three states.  The formless soul is the witness of the coming and going of the three states. The soul is immutable. The soul is unaffected by the happening within the three states because the three states are mere mirage created out of the formless soul, which is present in the form of consciousness. The soul or consciousness is the innermost self.



The self is neither the waking entity nor the self is dream entity but the self is the formless soul. The on the standpoint of the soul, the innermost self the three states are non-existent as reality.   
  

The ‘I’, body, ego and the world appear together and disappear together.  The reason disappears when ‘I’ disappears. Since everyone thinks ‘I’ as self all these doubts and confusion arises.  Whenever there is ‘I’ there is division, conflict, which is disorder. 

 When ‘I’ disappears then there is universal order, which alone is real.  The formless  soul  is  Witness of the three states.  One cannot say ‘I’ alone is illusion because ‘I’ is not the body but 'I' is  mind. the mind is present in the form of universe. the universe appears as waking or dream (duality) and disappears as deep sleep (non-duality).   Thus one has to learn to view and judge the three states on the standpoint of the formless witness, in order to know “what is truth” to know “what is untruth(illusion)”.  

When ‘I’ is there all diversities is experienced. Absent of ‘I’ there is no experience of diversity.  Thus there is a need to understand the fact that,  ‘I’ or mind is not limited to the waking entity alone because 'I' is the whole universe.  All the confusion will be cleared when one stops his verification on the base false self (waking entity or ego) and learns to reason on the base on the formless self (soul). 

The concept of illusion is within the illusion. All the concepts and thoughts are part of the illusion.  The formless substance and the witness of the illusion is reality.  There is need to know the fact that, the illusion is reality on the standpoint of ego(waking entity)  which is the false self, within the illusion(waking).  Until one tries to understand and assimilate the truth on the base of false self(waking entity or ego), it will lead him to imagination and hallucination.   

There is a need to verify the validity of all the accumulated knowledge through deeper inquiry, analysis and reasoning by the seekers of truth, in order to realize the fact that, they are all based on the false self, and will not transport the seekers to their non-dual destination.  

A permanent view of world as unreal can come only after soul centric reasoning; such knowledge cannot change. Were the seeker who is sufficiently sharpness he could grasp the unreal nature of the world by soul-centric reasoning alone.  To know whole truth, one must know the whole universe, otherwise he gets only half-truth. 

People speak of getting rid of conditioning or samskara but they themselves are unaware of the fact that, the universe in which they exist is product of the inborn samskara or conditioning.  The ignorance is cause of the inborn samskara or conditioning which present as ‘I’ or ‘I AM’. 

The real Moksha or freedom is   to realize the fact that ‘I’ consciousness is mere physical awareness. Physical awareness is not self-awareness. The self –awareness is when the formless soul or consciousness remains aware of its own non-dual   true nature. 

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  Francesca Milanato (((  )))

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  Susan Shirley Even in a one mile walk you can't shelf yourself and walk out the door . like a shadow .

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  Santthosh Kumaar He who realizes the walker, the waking and the distance are one in essence and that essence is spirit (consciousness) becomes one with the spirit. Thus it is necessary to realize the spirit is the innermost self to realize the kingdom of heaven is within you but it is without you and the world. 

  
  

  
  

  Gospel Thomas logian 22:- Jesus saw infants being suckled. He said to his disciples, “These infants being suckled are like those who enter the kingdom.”

  They said to him, “Shall we then, as children, enter the kingdom?”

  
  

  Jesus said to them, “When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female is female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom.”

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