The True Self is the soul. Soul is ultimate reality. The three states are unreal but they have no existence without the soul.
The waking and dream of diversity is not apart from the soul, which is in the form of spirit or consciousness but ultimately become one with the soul. The ultimate truth is that Atman alone is real, and the three states are unreal or an
illusion.
illusion.
Considering physical self/ego/’I’ as the self causes spiritual ignorance. One should learn to distinguish knowledge from ignorance to realize the True Self, which is the soul. Self-knowledge is the awareness of the ‘soul’, which pervades in everything and
everywhere in all the three states.
everywhere in all the three states.
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Permalink Reply by Kenneth Jeffrey Slem on
- Do you believe this ? Sounds rather abstract. Play often. Play with the children and remember, the man who says he knows doesn't and that understanding what is is the freedom from what is and that all learning can only begin when the divine quality of humility and innocense is found the attempt to live life to the fullest and lots and lots and lots of Truth as in K's teachings that frees oneself of all that is false artificial. Doubt, question,freedom first before non eternal saddled to death responsibilities.
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- Ultimate truth has no connection with end-gaining, belief, path or process. It cannot be taught but is continuously shared. Because it is everyone’s inheritance, no-one can lay claim to it. It needs not to be argued, proven or embellished, for it stands alone simply as it is, and can only remain unrecognised and rejected, or realized and lived.”
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Permalink Reply by Praveen Varma on
- Santtosh, your views may be true ; but way out of the reach of the ordinary person. How did you arrive at these ... What do you mean by 'soul' ?
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- Dear Praveen, The soul means the self without physicality. The soul is the source from where the mind rises and subsides. When the mind rises the as waking or dream [duality] and subsides as the deep sleep [non-duality]. For the soul, which is the true self, there is neither birth nor death. Nor having once been, does it ever cease to be. It is unborn and eternal, ever existing, undying and primeval. It is does not die when the body and the world dies. Since, most of the seekers are not ready to accept anything other then their accepted truth, it becomes difficult to understand assimilate the nondual truth. Anyone can realize the non dual truth if he is ready to verify the validity of his own belief and has courage to accept the truth and reject the untruth. Constant mental effort through reflecting on the nature of the true self /soul leads towards spiritual awareness. Those who follow formless path, resolving deep within themselves to seek Ataman/true self alone, attain singleness of purpose. For those who lack resolution, the decisions of life are many-branched and endless. Santthosh
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- Santosh you are making everything vey simple ! Your last para refers to meditation, I am sure, Thanks
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- Thank you Praveen, nondual truth is very simple, but it becomes very difficult to assimilate due to our inherited conditioning. If one is receptive and sharp enough to grasp the truth, then it is easy to understand and assimilate and realize the “Self “in lesser time and effort.
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Permalink Reply by Ajay Verma on
- Santthoshji, Assimilation is first step not the last. It wont free you. For total freedom, You have to DROP the assimilation too .
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- Dear Ajayji, When one assimilates the fact that the self is not physical but the formless spirit then the realization happens on its own. And there is no you , me and others to drop anything ,because the experience of diversity[waking/dream] is also the spirit, because the experience diversity is created out of formless spirit. There is no second thing other then the formless spirit, which is the formless witness and also the true self.
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- Santthossh, What you say is not you experience. Right? what makes you sure your words are making sense? Body is gross unconscious soul. soul+Mind+body=Complete humans. They are not separate.
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- Ajay, Dream is an experience. The Dream body +ego and the dream world are mere experience, which appeared and disappeared. Likewise the waking body ego and the waking world are also mere experience, which appears and disappears same way as the dream. The dream entity is limited to dream and waking entity is limited to waking experience. The one that witnesses, the three states, is formless, apart and eternal. This has to be mentally grasped. What exists eternally is the soul, which is in the form of consciousness. The words are mere communication purpose. When one bases his understanding on the physical base then the word and thoughts continuously convey something. When one’s understanding is firm with conviction that the soul is the true self, then for him the words, thoughts and experience is mere mirage. When one is fully aware of the fact that, the body and the world are mere experience, and the author of the experience [body+world] is not physical, but the formless spirit, he is fully aware of the fact that ‘I’/YOU/ME is mere experience, and whatever is experienced on the base of ‘I’/YOU/ME is also an experience. Thus, one has to realize the fact that, the author is formless and experience is form. The formless is eternal and form is time bound.
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- Are you ENLIGHTENED??
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Permalink Reply by Arun Sharma on
- As you declared-Soul is the true self. Means physical body & mind does not belongs to real self?
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- The body and the world are not apart from the mind. If mind is there then the body and the world are there. Absent of mind, is absent of body and world. Therefore limiting the mind to the physical entity alone creates the sense of separation. Until one thinks he is and individual separate from the world, he will remain in the grip of duality/ignorance, and he will not be able to assimilate self-knowledge. The one who bases himself on the birth entity will think,he is born in this world and world existed prior to him. For the soul, which is the true self, there is neither birth nor death. Nor having once been, does it ever cease to be. It is unborn and eternal, ever existing, undying and primeval. It is does not die when the body and the world dies. The true “Self” is hidden within the three states as their formless substance and witness. Mind[ body and world] and soul are one in essence. The mind rises from the soul/self/spirit and subsides as soul/self/spirit. There is neither body nor the world in the realm of the soul/self/spirit. The body and the world is part of the waking experience/mind. Same way as the dream body and the world are part of the dream. The body and the world of the dream or waking appear together and disappear together. The one which is aware of the appearance and disappearance of the three states is not body but the soul. Thus, on the standpoint of the soul/self, the three states are unreal, because the experience of diversity is mere mirage created out of the soul/self. Therefore, there is neither the body nor the world exists when one becomes aware of the fact that, the true self is the soul.
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- Dont you feel Santtosh, body and mind are manifestation of essential self ( as it appears), which you address as Soul. Because in one whole organism nothing is demarcated as soul, mind, physical body. simply different manifestations.
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- Hi Arun, Body including the world is Mind. When the mind is there the body and the world are there. Since, you think mind is within the body all these doubts and confusion arises. The body and the world appear together and disappear together. There is only mind/’I’ or no mind/’I’-less. Therefore, there is need to know the fact that, the mind is not limited to physical entity but to the whole experience of diversity [waking/dream]. and the soul/ self is not limited to physical entity but it pervades in everything and everywhere in all the three states. Santthosh
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- Absence of BODY is not literal absence. Body and Mind are seen as they are by consciousness. When consciousness is freed by total awareness , its The whole universe. Still BODY and MIND are there but as shadow of consciousness. Consciousness is the MASTER>
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Permalink Reply by Therese Okamoto on
- the Soul is the toddler inside each of us who has just learned how to read
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- Toddler is great step. I feel it is snoring. That's why so much noise.
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Permalink Reply by M k j on
- hello santtohsh! Title ' Why can't I dissolve? ' Well you have good knowladge and experience, Are you talking about the true wisdom the freedom from known? I have all my life wondered and went through all but I still exists , I want to understand who I am? and I still wonder why I do all this? I look into my own self has no motive what is it that I am still enquiring? persiving? meditating? why am I with my being came with so many fragments? why my eyes still goes back to see my ownself?Why I still move?Where am I going? The total consiousness , mankind 's suffering must end by all means , is that the reason I move? What will I do by realizing my ownself and my own brother and sisters my own mankind thats Me , still caught in ? Why can't I dissolve in ? Why can't I dissolve in?
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- Hi M K J, Thank you for your kind words. I hope my reply is not blocked. The true wisdom is not based on physicality. The known is dependent on knower. Without being aware of the formless knower the freedom is impossibility. The known appears and disappears as three states in succession. The man and his experience of the world exist within the known. The formless knower of the known is within and also is apart from the known. The formless knower is within the three states as their formless substance, and it is apart from the three states as their formless witness. It is apart because it is not an entity or identity within the waking/dream/known. You said: -I have all my life wondered and went through all but I still exists , I want to understand who I am? and I still wonder why I do all this? I look into my own self has no motive what is it that I am still enquiring? persiving? meditating? why am I with my being came with so many fragments? why my eyes still goes back to see my ownself?Why I still move?Where am I going? The total consiousness , mankind 's suffering must end by all means , is that the reason I move?---- all these are based on the false self [ ego/physical self ] within the false experience[waking or known] and it is not based on the true self, which is the formless knower of the three states. When mind/’I’ is there, then the body, ego and the world are there. Absent of the mind/’I’ is absent of ego/body and mind/’I’. The mind/’I’ appears as waking and dream, and disappears as spirit, which we call in ignorance as deep sleep. Thus the individual experiences are based on the false self /ego within the false experience, which is impermanent. The formless knower of this impermanence is real and eternal. Since one limits the mind to his physical entity , he remains ignorant of the formless knower and thinks his physical entity as true self, and judges the truth on the base of false self, and remains permanently ignorant of formless knower, believing the known[duality] as reality. Until, one’s understanding is based on the waking entity, it is impossible to assimilate the non-dual truth. It is necessary to know the fact that, man and his experience of the world are reality within the waking experience, and waking experience is mere mirage on the stand point of the formless knower/witness of the three states. The dream man and his experience of the world are reality within the dream, likewise the man within the waking experience and waking world are reality within the waking experience. The dream becomes unreal when waking takes place; similarly the waking becomes unreal when the non-dual wisdom dawns. The non-dual wisdom dawns when one becomes aware of the formless witness/knower of the three states and realizes the fact that the formless knower [soul/true self] and the known [three state] are one in essence. When the non-dual wisdom dawns there is neither knower nor known only non-dual reality. It is necessary to learn to view and judge the truth on the base of the formless knower/witness of the three states, in order to unfold the mystery of the mind/’I’, which is myth. To realize “What is truth?”, and “What is myth?” one has to go in deeper inquiry, analysis and reasoning on his own, because to search, understand, assimilate and realize non-dual truth, within the frame work of some teaching is impossibility. I /mind rise and subside in the formless source. Thus, becoming aware of the formless source is necessary in order to understand and assimilate the self-knowledge. Regards Santthosh
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- Self assurance of any kind is hinddrence to attainment. Baring your MIND can only boldly reveals its stupidities. IT require REAL GUTS to see bare MIND. Our constant struggle to become goes against rejecting MIND as the final TRUTH. MIND has to be encountered with wide open eyes , which we call observation. If we deal with mind we are partner in the crime called IGNORANCE. IGNORANCE IS SIN.
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- The body and the world cannot exist without the mind. The body and the world together is called mind. Limiting the body to the physical entity, and judging the truth on base of body as self is cause of the ignorance. The physical attributes is nothing to do with the true self, which the soul/spirit. The Naked mind is called the self/soul that is when the self remains without the waking or dream. The individual experiences of birth, life and death are happening within the mind/waking/dream. How one can have the real guts, when he and his experience of the world are within the mind/’I’. The mind appears and disappears as waking or dream. The waking experience is as real as dream. The one that witnessed the dream is not the waking entity, but it is the formless spirit. The formless spirit is the true self, and all else [three states] is the illusion. Therefore, there is a need to know ‘What is mind, and “What is the substance of the mind, in order to unfold the mystery of the mind/duality. Crime and sin is part of the false hood/duality One cannot overcome the ignorance by observing with wide open eyes. The observation has to be on the base of the spirit, and observation has to be done mentally. Until one thinks the mind is within the body, he is bound to remain in ignorance. Until one thinks he is different and the mind is different he will remain speculation on the base of physicality or intellectuality. Therefore, deeper inquiry analysis and reasoning on the base of the true self is necessary to understand and assimilate the self-knowledge. THE WITNESS NEITHER APPEARS, NOR DISAPPEARS. The spirit or Ataman is the witness. The witness neither appears nor disappears. The appearance and disappearance are mare mirage within the spirit. If seeker confines the ‘I’ to physical entity alone, inquiry, analysis and reasoning necessary to understand the fact that, the mind is mere mirage. The seeker must have something to say about his-self. He should not cling to accumulated knowledge. He has to be ever ready to receive the truth. The truth exists with or without the mind or duality.
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- you sound like pundits, narrating shastras. We all know this crap don't help. it has not helped anybody in 5000 years.page-3
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- Hi dear , It looks like your are uttering these words standing in front of the mirror.
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- Now What??
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- You use word SOUL as all pundits use. Do you know we have it or not. You believe it is. Belief is ignorance.
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- The word soul is an indicator to higher truth. Different words are used for the same by different people. Buddha called it emptiness/nothingness, Sri, Sankara called is Brahman/ultimate truth, christen called it Christ consciousness/ spirit, intellectuals called consciousness, Ramana called it Self. Thus, what harm is there in using the word soul, which is mere pointer to core of the true existence, which is not physical? Because you have the soul/consciousness , which knows your body and your experience of the world, you are able to exist as a person and you are able to believe whatever you want to believe, and reject whatever you do not want believe. Second-hand knowledge of the self gathered from books or gurus can never emancipate a man until its truth is rightly investigated and applied; only direct realisation will do that. Realize yourself, turning the mind inward. – Tripura Rahasya, 18: 89 With what you know your body with the name, and your worldly activities? It is not the body, which knows itself as the body. Without the knower which is the self, the body is insentient or dead. The one which knows itself as body, and functions itself as person, and perceives the world, is not the body, but the consciousness [self]. Therefore, thinking the body as self and trying to understand and assimilate and judging truth, will keep one in the grip of duality and makes him physical base pundit, and also makes him egoist, who thinks whatever his accumulated knowledge is truth, without bothering to verify the facts, and always judgmental and arguing on his own point of view. There is no scope of argument in pursuit of truth, because the ultimate truth is based on the formless self, and your arguments are based on the form [ego] as self. The truth is beyond physicality. Seekers have to share each others knowledge and remove the obstacles and move ahead inspiring each other and reach the non-dual destination in this mental journey. The ultimate Truth demands some thinking. Those who require mental spoon feeding, for them it is difficult to grasp. It is only possible to finger point to the reality and indicate the direction. It is not possible to make one realize the truth; it is for the seeker to verify on his own -through, deeper inquiry, analysis and reasoning and realize it. Seekers who will approach with receptiveness as they should be approached may conceivably pause at any time and say , these pointers are helping them to think on their own and assimilate the knowledge and understanding in proper and perfect way . One who is unaware of the fact that, how the physical body is able to function itself as a person, and perceive the world and with what he is able to know himself and his experience of the world, for him it is impossible to grasp the truth. For the people who are trying to judge the truth on physicality /intellectuality the truth is distant dream. Self is the Spirit the unchanging unlimited, immanent, and beyond the physical experience and it is the formless source of the waking/dream/deep sleep experiences. The one who become aware of the true self is the spirit has realized his identity with spirit as true self. Soul which is Absolute Reality is the true self. True Self is in the form of spirit and it eternal, genderless, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, and ultimately indescribable in human language. Objectless awareness means, the natural state of the mind. That is in midst of the experience of diversity, knowing whatever is seen, known, and believed and experienced is erupted from single substance, which is non dual spirit. Thus seeing all the objects as spirit, nothing but spirit is objectless awareness in spiritual sense. Objectless awareness is the nature of the self. Only through wisdom; the seeking mind can enter the state of objectless awareness.
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- Santosh, "Second-hand knowledge of the self gathered from books or gurus can never emancipate a man until its truth is rightly investigated and applied; only direct realisation will do that. Realize yourself, turning the mind inward. – Tripura Rahasya, 18: 89" This too is second hand.
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- Ajay, Truth has to be rightly investigated and applied; only direct realization will do that. Realize yourself, turning the mind inward to get first hand knowledge. Intellectual arguments is based on the ego as self and finding fault with every word used will not lead anyone anywhere. Deeper inquiry ,analysis and reasoning leads the seeker to understand and assimilate the self-knowledge.
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- The quality of mercy is understanding, anything less is an injustice. It is best for those who give it, and it is more than fair to those who get it.
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Permalink Reply by Joaquin on
- “Knowledge has no place in transformation” and here we go off again stating things others have said, believing in this or that, as if some divine concept will seep in and make us whole.
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- The end of the physical knowledge is the starting point of the self [spirit] knowledge. On the standpoint of the spirit, which is the true self, all knowledge other then the spirit is mere mirage. All the ideas transformation and intellectuality is part of the mirage. The formless substance and witness of the mirage is real and eternal. By assimilating the Self-Knowledge the ignorance disappears and only the formless substance witness of the mirage will prevails as ultimate truth. Therefore, there is a need to understand the knowledge acquired on the base of the physical self is part of the mirage and end of the physical knowledge is starting point of assimilation of non-dual wisdom or Self-Knowledge. When ignorance vanishes through self knowledge one becomes aware of the fact that, the whole experience of diversity[waking] is created out single substance, which is spirit or consciousness. Therefore all the diversity is consciousness because it is made out of consciousness. Therefore there is no second thing exists other then consciousness. Thus, consciousness/spirit is ultimate truth.
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- Dear Therese Before understanding spiritual truth one has to realize the fact that, the self is not physical, but it is the spirit. Trying to find the ultimate truth on base of the physical self/ego leads to speculation. And speculation leads to intellectuality. Intellectuality is greatest obstacle in realizing the spiritual truth. Thus one who is receptive and sharp enough to grasp will follow the self, which is not physical but it is the formless spirit and they realize it. And others will follow their ego and only accept their accepted truth without verifying the validity of their accepted truth, will remain arguing on their own point of view based on the false physical self. Santthosh
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- Again we go back to the believe system of having a spirit or soul or whatever. These concepts really don't have any meaning in self knowledge. Self knowledge is not a process of accumulation or analysis. Self knowledge is being aware without holding onto anything. Awareness of the thought system as it creates all kinds of meaningless ideas or concepts about its origin or true self. Just be aware of the process and stop holding on to concepts or ideas of the self, for at the very end there is "NOTHING, not a single thing". The body moves and the brain thinks and thought is needed to recognize things to communicate with others, don't give it more importance than it deserves. And even giving or not giving is a movement of thought, for behind this is intention.page-4
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- end of the physical knowledge is starting point of assimilation... Intellectuality is greatest obstacle in realizing the spiritual truth. - santthosh What is more intellectual than to abstract the physical? I refer you to George Berkeley's Three Dialogues which not only demonstrates the principles of inquiry in action but also does a fairly good job of making an actual understandable argument for the immaterialism, which you and many others have repeatedly asserted here without explanation... because i said so is not an explanation... words have this annoying habit of appearing to be intellectual and any disclaimer of your more spiritual existence relative to the page is just guessing after all is written, it is what you have writ ... don't give it more importance than it deserves... giving (actual physical evidence) of movement of thought - Joaquin a word is to its meaning, as a self is to its body - george was a well meaning soul who thought the upshot of immaterialism is that the ends really do justify all the means, as nothing materializes, otherwise being somebody is a blueprint for disaster in my codex, and the ends justify the means is just another way of saying its okay if you can get away with it Postscript: I am well read in philosophy including the philosophy of JK. I am not an intellectual. Here we are all eyes and yet real eyes are not seen here. See?
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- The intricate maze of philosophy of different schools claims to clarify matters and reveal the Truth, but in fact they create more confusion where no confusion need exist. To understand anything there is a need for perfect understanding and assimilation of the truth. Why worry about physical body, ego, logic creation, creator, saints and sages, and the world, which are part and parcel of the illusion. All the thoughts and words are experiences are part of the illusion. The truth is hidden with in the illusion as its formless substance and it is apart from the illusion as its formless witness. It is apart because it is not an entity or identity with in the illusion. The formless substance and witness are one in their essence therefore there is no seconding exists other then the essence, which is in the form of consciousness. All conceptual divisions invented by teachers of philosophy by their excessive analysis. Where do all these concepts end? Why should confusion be created and then explained away? Fortunate is the man who does not lose himself in the labyrinths of philosophy, but goes straight to the Source from which the mind rises and subsides. Assuming or speculating and coming to logical conclusion on the base of physical self/ego, is intellectuality. Therefore, intellectuality is egocentric. Egocentricity is greatest obstacle in grasping the non-dual truth. one has to travel from physical existence/illusion towards non-dual reality/spiritual existence. There is no need to study philosophies of Berkeley, Kant, Hume, and other western and eastern philosophers; they are not the means to acquire Self-Knowledge or non-dual wisdom. They are in fact an obstacle in pursuit of truth, because they are based on the physical self/ego. There is no necessary to study philosophy of any great thinkers to ensure firm realization. There is no need of any philosophy to verify the truth of the self. All that is intellectual wealth, useful in explain doubts and difficulties if others rise them if he himself encounter them in course of thinking. But to attain realization, all that is not necessary. One wants fresh water to drink, but he does not require all the water of the whole lake to quench his quest. Pursuit of truth deals with the whole of experience. Science may give the scientific answers, religion the religious answers, but in pursuit of truth the seeker absorbs all views and he rejects them, if they are based on the false self and illusion. Science deals only with immediate causes, not the ultimate cause. Such process is on the physical plane, good for worldly life. Philosophical Authoritarianism merely assumes as true what another says, but what has yet to be proved. Lots of pundit will teach “Who am ‘I’”? but none have deeply analyzed it scientifically, none can prove it. Rational proof is needed in pursuit of truth, so that one can arrive at knowing truth i.e. Wisdom; theirs is mere dogma, parrotism, repetition of what they think and speculate is truth. Philosophical argument leads nowhere. If one philosopher says “Self” is formless “another will reply, "No, self has a form! If one says "his adopted philosophy has higher value then all other philosophy” another will say, "No, that is lower and there are many philosophies higher then that." It is impossible to get anywhere with such talk because both sides are merely assuming and imagining. Pursuit of truth does not begin with ultimate truth just by holding some philosophical declaration as truth, truth has to be proved, not assumed. People who take philosophies for granted are mere scholars who have mastered philosophy without verifying the validity and parroting their philosophical knowledge not the truth. People think philosophical mastery is wisdom but it is mere play of words. The philosophical knowledge is not the means to non-dual wisdom. Seeker has to mentally grasp the true “Self “or “consciousness” which is beyond the reach of the experiences, words and thought, and it is the formless substance and witness of all the three states. The means to the attainment of Self- Knowledge are: discrimination between things permanent [real/ non-dual/self ] and impermanent [unreal/duality/mind], and the urge for spiritual freedom.
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- There is no necessary to study philosophy of any great thinkers to ensure firm realization.Santhosh It seems to me when it is asserted that none of this really exists is made, a lot of children will not understand. The method to explain it involves at least as many words as you used to explain that an explanation is not necessary to attain wisdom. Students hear very little of wisdom and some of them dont think of it much less think of it as desireable. There are so many material things that are so much more desireable. What is the nature of desire? I desires books a lot. Wholesouled reading ends up being a surrender to an authority for a very little while and often letting someone smarter and with more time to do my thinking for me, and then I have something to think about. As your words have made me think that, for me, Study is a virtue that is truly its own reward unlike the cardinal virtues which have been possessed so much by so many they are hardly worth having. Generosity, another minor and uncultivated virtue, would be even better, unfortunately I cannot afford it. I can only be generous with my words and my time and these poor substitutes for great gifts will have to do for now.
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- When one becomes aware of the fact that, the ‘Self’ is not form, but formless, then he also becomes aware that, thinking and the words which are based on the form becomes meaningless. On the base of the formless self, the whole physical existence in which consists man and his experience of the world becomes mere mirage. The dream is witnessed as a whole, without the physical apparatus .Similarly, the waking also is witnessed without the physical apparatus. Therefore, it is necessary to trace the formless witness in order to grasp the non-dual truth. The waking entity is not the self; therefore, quest of truth becomes very difficult path because we base ourselves on the waking entity . Therefore, rectifying the reasoning base from form to formless is necessary before indulging in pursuit of truth. Until one reaches the perfect understanding, the thinking and words are useful to assimilate the non-dual truth. When all doubts and confusion which are holding one to believe, the physical existence as reality gets cleared, then one realizes the fact that, the thinking and the thoughts and experiences and the words are part of the mirage. Until one remains unaware of the fact that the self is formless, he is bound to believe whatever he has seen, known, believed and experienced as a person, as reality. Until he believes his –self as a person he is bound to believe the birth, life and death [duality/mind] or pleasure and pain [duality/mind] as reality. They alone in this world are endowed with the highest wisdom who are firm in their conviction of the sameness and birthlessness of the Self/Spirit. The people who are not sharp and receptive does not understand their way Everyone is smart enough to understand assimilate the self-knowledge. however, because of the inherited conditioning from grooming and circumstances, one is in the grip of duality, which he thinks, it as reality. A well directed inquiry, analysis and reasoning on the true base, will lead the seeking mind towards perfect understanding and assimilation of non-dual truth. ALL the virtues and generosity are necessary in physical plane, but they are not the means to acquire self-knowledge. One has to do mental effort to assimilate the effortless existence. One has to spend time to understand the time less existence. One has to understand and realize the fact that, the ultimate truth is beyond form, time and space and until we do not understand that fact we are in the grip of duality and we will continue in the words of others without verifying their validity. Until we have the yardstick to know what truth is, and what is untruth, whatever we read and try to assimilate will not yield any fruits. Therefore, it is necessary to realize the fact that, the true self is not the form but formless. On the standpoint of the formless self, the whole physical existence is mere mirage. The man and his experience of the world exist even in the dream. The dream becomes unreal, when waking takes place. The waking in which you and me are discussing the truth becomes unreal, when the non-dual wisdom dawns. Thus, it is necessary to understand the fact that, the waking is parallel dream and dream is parallel waking experience. The one which is aware of the coming and going of the three states is formless and apart. This truth has to be grasped to realize the non-dual truth. The only way to understand assimilate and realize the non-dual truth is to focus the attention on the formless substance and witness of the mind.
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- Hi, Santosh, Very well explained and great to have you back!
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- Thank you Praveen, I hope everything is blissful at your end. Take care Love Santthosh. It is difficult to discuss the ultimate truth within the scope of some teaching. The barricade has to be removed to grasp the ultimate truth. It is necessary to understand “What truth is” and also “What is untruth” in order realize the ultimate truth. So also understanding the illusion is necessary. The reason for this is that the ways to realize the ultimate truth is very intricate or deep. The duality creates separateness in the physical existence. The life has meaning only in physical existence. The whole life depends on action. Action in duality comprises action and inaction, because inaction is also action. Until and unless one analysis the various aspects three states the ultimate truth is impossible to grasp. But on in depth analysis it may be found to be the witness of the three states is formless and apart. Thus, the ultimate truth is very intricate to grasp and it demands deep analysis and study. Whoever partakes in pursuit of truth sincerely acquires non-dual wisdom. For a person who indulges in religion, god and guru glorification and scriptural studies, intellectuality and yoga, the question of acquiring the non-dual wisdom is impossibility. The person who does not indulge in pursuit of truth will not be Self-Realized. Elimination of ignorance through Self-Knowledge is nobler then any other physical based knowledge. All ignorance gets extinguished in non-dual wisdom. The mind has physical limitation. Wisdom acquired on the base of soul as self is limitless. Through non-dual wisdom all the untruth gets merged in to the ultimate truth which is the Self/Spirit. One has to indulge in deeper inquiry, analysis and reasoning and try to assimilate what is truth. Seeker has to put question to those who are expounding the Self-Knowledge with humility without arguing on the standpoint of accumulated knowledge. The one who has achieved the ultimate knowledge will be able to guide to the end. Once one attains Self-knowledge he will not fall prey to any kind of doubts and confusion (as what is truth and what is untruth). One will find the three states are being apart from the true Self/Spirit, and the three states and the true “Self” are one in essence. Therefore, even the three states are the spirit, because, it is created out of spirit. Self-Knowledge is meant to liberate man from doubts and confusion as what is truth, and what is untruth. Attainment of Self-Knowledge make one realize the three states are mere illusion and ultimately the illusion merges with the Self/Spirit/consciousness, which is the true self.
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- the soul is the yin the spirit is the yang in the attainment of truth virtue goes without saying after that the most important thing of all is letting others be who they really are
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- Thus, the ultimate truth is very intricate to grasp and it demands deep analysis and study. - Santosh- disagree that ultimate truth demands deep analysis and study the grasp of the intricate comes from pure unadulterated actuality, once and for all
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- Without deep analysis and study one will remain in the physical plain, believing whatever, he has seen, known, believed and experienced as person of the world, as reality. Only after deeper analysis one becomes aware of the fact that, self is not physical but it is the formless spirit. On the base of the spirit as self the physical existence is mere mirage. Therefore, agreeing and disagreeing on physical point of view is mere intellectuality. Without analyzing what is adulterated, how can one realize the un-adulterated actuality. There is need to know what is truth, to negate the untruth. Without knowing the what is truth, it is impossible to know what is untruth. There is no scope of arguing on the standpoint of the physical self in pursuit of truth, because it leads nowhere. But one has to go deeper analysis and study on his own ,which helps him to realize the truth and mentally reject the untruth once and for all. The reason used on the physical based is called intellect. The intellect is used in waking life. Intellect cannot grasp the the ultimate reality or non-dual truth, because it is based on physicality. The Reason based on the soul as self can grasp it. The sharp intelligence can perceive that waking itself is a mental state similar to the dream state. Only Few, know the distinction between reason and intellect. Reason is so troublesome to use! That is why they misinterpret and misunderstand non-duality. Reason based on the soul/spirit/true self will lead one towards non-duality. The physical based reason which says “This is right ; this is not right.” And it evaluates thoughts as they come and go. The reason based on the soul which says: “this is truth” and “this is untruth”, which evaluates the dual[waking or dream] and non-dual[deep-sleep] experiences. The reason based on the soul is the permanent faculty of the existence, whereas intellect is the lower faculty , which builds up the logical chains. Reason based on the soul can judge what is truth and what is untruth, whereas the intellect can judge only on the standpoint of physical self/ego.
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- the soul is the yin the spirit is the yang in the attainment of truth virtue goes without saying after that the most important thing of all is letting others be who they really are The soul and the spirit is one and the same thing.Thinking soul is one and spirit is different is erroneous. The attainment of truth happens only when one realizes the mind and the soul are one is essence. And there is no second thing exists other then the spirit because the experience of diversity[mind] is created out of spirit. The virtue and love is part of the the illusion. In reality nothing exists other then the non-dual spirit. The virtue implies duality. Until the duality remains as reality, there is no unity in diversity. Therefore there is no need to know what you are but one has to know what the truth is, because the true Self is not physical but formless , therefore it is without any gender. Realizing the true self is Soul /Spirit and physical existence is mere mirage, on the standpoint of the spirit, is more important then anything else.
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- One has to get rid of the ignorance first, then he will realize the fact that, the thoughts, words and the three states become meaningless, because man and his experience of the world are mere mirage created out of the formless substance, which can be called anything for communication purpose. Man is doer within the mirage. The birth,life and death takes place within this mirage. And this Mirage appeared spontaneously and it also disappears spontaneously.This Mirage has has no permanence. The formless source from where the this mirage has appeared and subsides is real and eternal. Until one thinks he is the doer he is in the grip of the ego. Ego is the cause of the ignorance. When one overcomes the ignorance one becomes free from experiencing the mirage/ duality as reality. Only deeper thinking and reasoning on the base of the true self[formless] will make one realize what is truth and what is illusion.page-5
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- MIND is incapable of GRASPING truth, because of its dualistic [PAIR LIKE] functionality. DAY and NIGHT. Mind can understand Day in comparison to NIGHT. But can not grasp them as one.
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- MIND is incapable of GRASPING truth, because of its dualistic [PAIR LIKE] functionality. DAY and NIGHT. Mind can understand Day in comparison to NIGHT. The day and night are reality within the physical existence[man+world]. The witness of the physical existence is formless and apart. Deeper inquiry, analysis and reasoning revels he fact that the self is not physical. If self is not physical then who(what) dreampt, who(what] slept ,and who(what) got up? Only when one analyzes the three states, then he becomes aware of the fact that, the dream was witnessed as a whole without the physical apparatus and the same witness of the dream witnessed the waking experience as a whole. Thus, judging the truth on the waking entity is erroneous, because waking identity is limited to waking experience alone, and in dream it has a different identity and in deep sleep there was no identity. Therefore, the one which is aware of the three states which comes and goes is apart and permanent. The formless witness has to be mentally traced and grasped. If one is sharp enough he will grasp it instantly. for others it takes time they have to to reflect on the subject constantly until their conviction becomes firm. Truth means certainty. If there is any uncertainty it is not truth. It does not deal with imaginations. People do not have the scientific attitude because they take things as presented to them. They have rather the emotional and sentimental attitude. The correct attitude is to verify all the facts, to see a problem in them, something to investigate and inquire into them. Truth must be verifiable; unless it is verifiable it is of no value. Analogical, inductive and deductive reasoning are good only within the physical existence; none are absolutely and universally infallible because they are based on the physical self. Whatever is based on the waking entity leads to imagination and speculation not towards non dual reality. The man and his experience of the world is not separate from the mind. When one limits the mind to physical entity and views and judges the worldview all these confusion arises. Therefore, there is a need to know the fact that, the self is not physical but it is formless. When this is fact is traced then all accumulated knowledge based on the physical self becomes dross. Thus, Self-knowledge is necessary to burn all the accumulated dross. Anyone who is ready to drop the physical based/egocentric accumulated dross, and has a urge to no the truth will be able to grasp it, if his reasoning base is rectified from form to formless and well directed. One has to overcome all the obstacle in pursuit of truth. This is possible only when one is free from “I KNOW” –business and has the humility to verify the facts. There is a need to stop judging on base of the accumulate egocentric knowledge, which makes one to imagine and speculate. It takes time to learn to view and judge the three states on the base of the formless witness. Once one is able to view and judge the three states on the base of formless witness, then one will have the yardstick to know “what is truth” and “what is untruth” and he will be able to mentally reject the untruth or illusion.
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Permalink Reply by Anil kumar on
- Is soul different from us?
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- The soul pervades in everything and everywhere in all the three states. Therefore, the diversity[mind] is mere illusion created out of the soul, which is in the form of consciousness. No second thing exists other then the consciousness. On the standpoint of physical self there is diversity. On the standpoint of the soul/self there is only non-dual existence.
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Permalink Reply by nami on
- Questioner: What is the soul? Krishnamurti: Our culture, our civilization has invented the word `soul' - civilization being the collective desire and will of many people. Look at the Indian civilization. Is it not the result of many people with their desires, their wills? Any civilization is the outcome of what may be called the collective will; and the collective will in this case has said that there must be something more than the physical body which dies, decays, something much greater, vaster, something indestructible immortal; therefore it has established this idea of the soul. Now and then there may have been one or two people who have discovered for themselves something about this extraordinary thing called immortality, a state in which there is no death, and then all the mediocre minds have said, ``Yes, that must be true, he must be right; and because they want immortality they cling to the word `soul' . You also want to know if there is something more than mere physical existence, do you not? This ceaseless round of going to an office, working at something in which you have no vital interest, quarrelling, being envious, bearing children, gossiping with your neighbour, uttering useless words - you want to know if there is something more than all this. The very word `soul' embodies the idea of a state which is indestructible, timeless, does it not? But, you see, you never find out for yourself whether or not there is such a state. You don't say, ``I am not concerned with what Christ, Shankara, or anybody else has said, nor with the dictates of tradition of so-called civilization; I am going to find out for myself whether or not there is a state beyond the framework of time''. You don't revolt against what civilization or the collective will has formulated; on the contrary, you accept it and say, ``Yes, there is a soul' '. You call that formulation one thing, another calls it something else, and then you divide yourselves and become enemies over your conflicting beliefs. J. Krishnamurti This Matter of Culture Author's Note
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- Why so much discussion on the word soul. Call it anything consciousness, Brahman, ultimate truth, holy spirit, Buddha’s nature, emptiness, nothingness, Christ consciousness or Atman it is one and same thing, different name given by the different teachers. The words are used for communication purpose, instead of having allergic views towards words, it is better know on what context that word has been used and move ahead towards the wordless existence. When the self is not physical but it is formless entity, then all belief system, philosophies all teachings, theories, practices ,civilization has no value. All the conflicts, doubts and confusion exist only on the base of physical self. Therefore, there is a need to realize the fact that, the self is not physical but it is the formless entity or call it soul, consciousness, self or whatever ..................... The soul /self/whatever............ is the formless source from where the Mind rises as waking or dream and subsides as deep sleep. The truth is hidden within the three states as their formless substance and it is apart from the three states as their formless witness. It is apart because, it is not an entity or identity within the waking and dream experience. It takes a long time to grasp this truth because people accepted some thing else as truth and refuse to verify the facts, therefore their accumulated knowledge becomes a greatest obstacle in realizing the non-dual truth. There is no second thing exist other then the soul, which is in the form of consciousness. To understand what is the soul , one has to know the source of the physical existence/mind [man his experience of the world] from where it rises and subsides. When one becomes aware of the formless source of the mind, then he becomes aware of the fact that, the physical existence is mere mirage created out of the soul/self/consciousness. Therefore, the diversity is mere mirage. There is no second thing exists other then the consciousness or call it whatever.......
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- Only when one finds whatever he has read and understood of any teaching and philosophies is inadequate or useless to quench his spiritual thirst, then he tries to find it on his own. JK also rejected after he found all his theosophical understanding, when he found it useless in pursuit of truth . Buddha also rejected religion, scriptures concept of god when he found them useless to realize the ultimate truth. The truth pursuit is personal journey and a journey of verification of facts. No teachings are required in pursuit of truth. Ultimate Truth has to be discovered ,assimilated and realized by deeper inquiry, analysis and reasoning. Ultimate Truth can be only found through reason based on the soul as self. People throng to teaching and bookish knowledge , not to inquire, analyze and reason. Many sounds a strong convictioned, and their knowledge is based only on the teachings and others opinions. They support their arguments with references from philosophical books or scriptures or the thoughts of the great thinkers. Seeker has to remember for every strong argument there will be a counter argument. The truth is always based on the formless self; therefore, what is the use of arguing on the form based understanding, which is the cause of ignorance. In ignorance one ignores the Truth itself. Those who get involved in intellectual debates, which are based on the form as self, will get only hallucinated realization based on speculation. Many people think and discuss on the authors of the books or teacher. As seekers of truth one has to know where the author or teacher has got stuck in assimilating the self-knowledge for their own research. There is no need to criticize any authors and teacher. If one bases his reasoning on the soul as self then he will know how far they have reached in their understanding and assimilation of the non-dual truth. The value of Self –Knowledge isn’t to be found in books. Those are just the external appearances of self; they're not the realization of “Self” as proof. If one realizes the “Self” then he realizes the formless substance of the mind, and he sees the truth in it. When the truth becomes apparent then it cuts off the stream of delusion. Their writings are pointers to truth, not truth-in-itself. That's why merely believing in their books is pointless. “Some of the great thinkers think that, there is no difference between the ‘thinker’ and ‘thought’; the ‘observer’ and the ‘observed’ emphasizing the correlation between the internal and external worlds, for a complete understanding of Truth. This understanding would bring about a radical transformation of the mind, by the mutation in our brain cells and would change our perception of the world.” But they fail to understand the thinker and the thought are part of the illusion or duality. There is neither thinker nor thought in reality. The thought will not rise without the form; therefore the thought will rise only when the physical self is present. The physical self is present only when the waking experience or dream is present. The waking or dream is present only when the mind is present. Therefore, there is a need to understand all these facts, before moving ahead in pursuit of truth. When the self is not physical but is is formless, then there is no question of basing it on brain cells or psychology because they are based on physical self. The physical self is false self . If thinker and thought of the dream and observer and observed of the dream disappears along with the dream. Same way the waking ‘thinker’ and ‘thought’; the ‘observer’ and the ‘observed’ disappears in deep sleep. It is not the waking entity which is aware of the coming and going of the three states. The formless witness of the three states is apart from the three states. The three states are unreal, on the standpoint of the formless witness of the three states. And the formless witness is also the substance of the three states. Therefore, the one which is aware of the three states is not physical; therefore, question of mutation of brain cells does not arise. Since the thinker and the thought exist with in the duality and thinker and the thought both are object to the formless witness. Therefore, one need to understand the fact that, the subject [true self/spirit] is formless and the object is form [three states]. The subject and the object is one in essence because the object is created out of the formless subject. Since, scientific inventions are based on the physical self and physical existence; there invention will not go beyond the physical existence. And they can only discover the truth of the fragments within the consciousness, not of the whole. Until and unless they discover the fact that, the self is not physical, their understanding will not go beyond physicality. When the self is not physical but it is the formless spirit, searching truth within the physical body or brain cells is of no use. To assimilate the self-knowledge effectively, seeker needs to be receptive. He has to have patience and humility and allow the person to speak freely express himself about the Self-Knowledge, without hindrance or interruption. In return, seeker will receive free expression and then, try to grasp what he is saying. Seeker should not be judge on the base of his accumulated knowledge and simply argue on his own point of view. Seeker has to accept others views, if he finds them un-contradictable truth. Seeker has to verify the validity of all claims by using his own reason. Seeker has to get all the doubts cleared by questioning patiently, and point out all the doubts and confusion with humility. Argument is greatest obstacle in pursuit of truth, therefore never indulge in arguments. Therefore, discussion with humility is the way towards the ultimate truth. This will enable him to provide understanding and to see the fellow seekers perspective that is not to say that, he has to agree to their point of view, however it will offer or enable one to consider another option. And it helps seeker to think deeper when he is not satisfied with the answers and find answer on his own reasoning, till un- contradictable answer is found. If one can truly understand “what is Mind”? “What is substance of the mind?” it would lead to resolving a lot of perhaps unnecessary trouble, and conflict. If we look closely at the nature of the mind, what it is really, how it has come into being, and what constitutes it, then it will become clear of the fact that, mind is mere illusion; the formless substance and witness of the mind, which is the formless spirit, is real and eternal.
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- Mr santthosh I have read your English. To me it sounds like you are trying to describe "space". Space is a necessity, inwardly and outwardly. Without space nothing would have existed. We fill this space with the things of the mind. Thought is matter . Whether it is one's own thought or it is some one else's thought. Without understanding thought . What ever one seeks can be a projection of thought itself. Don"t you think? Thought has manifested it's own truth.It's own destiny.
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- Mr nami, Thank you. I am sorry my English may not be of your standard. Words cannot express truth. That which words express is not truth in itself . The truth has to be grasped mentally and realized. The truth is beyond form, time and space. Form, time and space exist to gather and disappear together. The inward and outward is part of the parcel of the illusion. Without the form one cannot be aware of the time and space. Only in physical existence[waking or dream] one is aware of the form ,time and space and in deep sleep there is neither form, nor time nor space. Deeper inquiry revels the fact that ,the self is not physical but it is the formless spirit. On the base of the formless spirit as self, the form, time and space is mere illusion. The dream form, time and space becomes unreal when the waking takes place, likewise, the form, time and space of waking experience becomes unreal when one becomes aware of the fact that, Self is not physica but it is the formless spirit. Until one thinks the mind is within the body, he will remain in the grip of the illusion/duality. Only when the mind is there then man and his experience of the world is there. Therefore, man and his experience of the world together is mind. Mind is not within the body, but the body and the world are within the mind. Until one limits the mind to physical entity, he will experience form, time and space as reality. If there is no form how one will be aware of the time and space. The thoughts cannot rise without the form, time and space. The form, time and space is present only in waking or dream. Waking or dream is present only when the mind is present. Thus, waking or dream, form, time and space are nothing but mind. The thought and the thinker is part of the illusion, and it nothing to do with the ultimate truth. To bifurcate the truth from the untruth , the concept of illusion is needed because it is a mental process. Man is not the author of the dream or waking experience ,because man and his experience of the world are within the dream or waking experience. The one which is aware of the three states, which comes and goes is formless and apart and eternal. Even the thoughts comes to a person with in the dream, and dream becomes unreal. Similarly the thoughts comes to the waking entity ,but waking experience itself is unreal on the standpoint of the formless self, which spirit/ consciousness. Thus, form ,time, space and thoughts or whatever projection is mere illusion. The formless stuff from which the illusion is made, is real and eternal and it is our true identity. Therefore, there is a need to become aware of the formless substance and witness of the three states to grasp the non dual truth. Until one drops the all physical based accumulated dross, it becomes difficult to grasp the non-dual truth. Regards Santthosh
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- The reason I called it "your English" is that in common daily English we never refer to the word self as such as you refer to. the self is petty and small. It can imagine god or truth . or it can worship itself. But the reality of its own pettiness is evident in its manifestation. The self is ever the observer without any foundation. No one here claims that the self is god or truth or love . The self is the cause of all the misery on this poor earth. Truth is that which an average man can witness and agree upon. not some thing reserved only for a few enlightened men.
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- Thank you for your clarification. The man becomes enlightened when he is Self-Realized. We cannot find a better word in English other then the Self. Only a man in quest searches for the truth, when he searches the truth in all the books, all the teachings, all religion, all the scriptures and yoga and glorifying the gurus and god and fails to find it, finally he realizes the fact that, there is nothing left to investigate other then his Self. Thus, he starts his Self-inquiry and realizes the fact that, the” Self” is not physical but it is the formless Spirit. Thus, he becomes aware of the fact that, the Self he was identifying with his physical body with the name is not the self, but the formless knower of the body with the name and of the world, is the true Self. When this realization happens then the physical existence[body+world] becomes mere mirage. When the self is identified with the physical body with the name then it is called ego/physical self. Therefore, one has to realize the fact that, the ego is the false self within the false experience. Whatever ,seen, known, believed experienced on the base of ego/physical self is bound to be falsehood. The love ,god are part of the falsehood. The ignorance of the true self [spirit] is the cause of experiencing the birth, life and death as reality. Getting rid of the ignorance and realizing the fact that, misery and pleasure are mere mirage on the standpoint of the true self, is truth realization or Self-Realization. The average man does not indulge in truth pursuit and it is difficult for him because he is stuck to his inherited belief system and his worldly life and circumstances. Only those people who are serious, sincere , who has urge to know the truth and receptive will indulge in truth pursuit. Truth is not individual property, it is universal, and any one can realize it, on his own without any teacher or teaching , if his inquiry and reasoning is well directed. The truth pursuit is a personal journey, it is nothing to do with the other people who have accepted the physical self and physical existence as reality. Truth cannot be bought in the market , it has to be discovered ,assimilated and realized, by discovering what is falsehood. Because, the truth is hidden within the falsehood as its formless substance and witness. Therefore, the average man who views the world with the physical eyes will not be able to realize the fact that, he and his experience of the world are mere mirage on the standpoint of the formless self/spirit. Thus he believes god ,world and his physical body as reality and also experiences the birth,life and death as reality. The individual experiences within the waking experience is falsehood, therefore they are nothing to do with the ultimate truth. The religious truth and worldly truth are individual truth limited to the waking experience, not universal. Until and unless one learns to view the three states on the base of the formless true self , he will remain experiencing untruth as reality. Truth is not reserved for anyone, it is available to the whole humankind if they are ready to come out from their physical reservation and burn the accumulated knowledge based on the physical self/ego.page-6
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- "You don't revolt against what civilization or the collective will has formulated; on the contrary, you accept it and say, ``Yes, there is a soul' '. You call that formulation one thing, another calls it something else, and then you divide yourselves and become enemies over your conflicting beliefs." Should we dicard that statement or find the truth in it for our selves?
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- Soul is the ultimate truth. The Soul is self-evident. It is not established by extraneous proofs. It is not possible to deny the soul, because It is the very essence of the one who denies It. The soul is the basis of all kinds of knowledge, presuppositions and proofs. Soul is the true self . Self is within, Self is without; Self is before, Self is behind; Self is on the right, Self is on the left; Self is above and Self is below. Soul/Self is not an object, as It is invisible, beyond the reach of the eyes. Soul/self is whole , infinite, changeless, self-existent, self-delight, self-knowledge. It is, essence. It is the essence of the knower of the physical existence. It is the formless witness of the three states. Soul/Self is supreme and it is impersonal, without attributes, formless, , immutable, eternal and. It is above all needs and desires. It is always the Witnessing Subject. It can never become an object as It is beyond the reach of the physicality because it is prior to physicality . Soul/Self is non-dual, one without a second. It has no other beside It. It is destitute of difference, either external or internal. Soul/Self cannot be described, because description implies distinction. Soul/Self cannot be distinguished from any other than Itself. The belief system is based on physicality. One has to dismantle physical structure mentally by realizing the fact that, the self is not physical but it is formless spirit, to overcome all conflicts and move towards the universal truth. Until one thinks body is one thing and world is another he will remain in ignorance. Only when he becomes aware of the fact that, the body and the world both are created out of single stuff, then there is unity in diversity in his understanding.
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Permalink Reply by james heartland & reiko kanno on
- No movement, no change, no difference, no self, no other... yet, experience happens, the world moves, form is formless, and the one writing is the one reading. The joy of it, is its own unalterable nature, as it has always been, and shall be. Beyond this, much more and nothing at all.
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- The self/spirit/soul is the subject, not an object[three states]. All moments, change ,difference, conflicts and false self/ego and experiences are happening within in the object. The subject is is apart and unaffected, because it is not an entity or identity within the object. Until one considers the ego as self or the subject, it leads to intellectuality or egocentricity. And one thinks the form is formless, formless is form within the object. When the wisdom dawns one becomes fully aware there is nothing ever existed, noting exists, and noting is going to exist other then the formless soul/spirit. Therefore, the experience of diversity is mere mirage ,which appears and disappears as mind, in which man perceives the world. Nothingness is the nature of the true self /soul. Nothingness[Soul/true self ] is the formless substance and witness of the mirage[three states]. Realizing the fact that, the soul is the self , then the mirage[ignorance] vanishes to its unadulterated non-dual nature. The one who is writing and the one who is reading is part of the mirage. The beyond is within the mirage and it is without the mirage.
